<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>I feel we are barking up the wrong tree here.</div><div><br></div><div>The discussion seems to be about which is better or whether WHOIS is a golden nail. Granted it is not perfect but it is useful and thus supports a legitimacy position. Whether there may be something better is not really the issue here IMHO.</div><div><br></div><div>Paul</div><div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of theo geurts <<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 7:35 PM<br><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Dotzero <<a href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com">dotzero@gmail.com</a>>, Andrew Sullivan <<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] On interoperation and policy (was Re: Contactability)<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style="BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div>
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Mike, Allison, <br>
<br>
Perhaps more blunt tools are required? It looks to me we are not
able to quantify the issue here, WHOIS vs. no WHOIS. <br>
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://domainincite.com/22339-icann-urged-to-crack-down-on-new-gtld-abuse">http://domainincite.com/22339-icann-urged-to-crack-down-on-new-gtld-abuse</a><br>
Looks like a better path to get a solution as opposed to
reputation-based systems who factor in WHOIS. From what I been
reading on this list ccTLDs who keep their space clean do not have
to fear much from the fact that there is no PII in a WHOIS. <br>
<br>
Perhaps we are shaking the wrong tree here?<br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
<br>
Theo <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29-11-2017 18:47, Dotzero wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAJ4XoYe1b-junDmW0=0Jig8hdLPzOUHYcaPa6=uzZHc__C9DUA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Comment at the bottom.<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:28 PM,
Andrew Sullivan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear
colleagues,<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 06:21:16PM +0100, Volker
Greimann wrote:<br>
> suffice it to say that I do<br>
> not consider their publications evidence. "Domains
seen" indeed... Ignoring<br>
> them is the better options unless they develop
better methodologies _and_<br>
> start sharing them for peer examination.<br>
<br>
> Am 29.11.2017 um 18:03 schrieb allison nixon:<br>
<br>
> > Love them or hate them, you can't ignore them.
If Spamhaus listed an IP<br>
> > range, that range would suffer severe
connectivity issues across the<br>
> > entire Internet. When it comes to
interoperability, Spamhaus's lists<br>
> > effectively matter more than ICANN's
accreditation.<br>
<br>
I think that the above two snippets neatly describe the
point I, at<br>
least, have been trying to make about the Internet's
operational<br>
reality.<br>
<br>
Volker's assertion appears to be that the right thing
according to the<br>
agreed-upon evaluation criteria is what ought to be
guiding us.<br>
<br>
Allison's claim, however, is that there are operational
realities on<br>
the Internet, and that operators are going to do
whatever they do and<br>
that the ICANN community policies had better take those
interests into<br>
account, or find that the policies are irrelevant.<br>
<br>
I would go further even than Allison does, because in my
opinion she<br>
is describing the _design_ of the Internet: it's
_inter_networking,<br>
and the only basis upon which it happens is the
voluntary<br>
interoperation by operators. On my network, I get to
decide what I'm<br>
willing to accept. That might not include everything on
the Internet.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
A<br>
</blockquote>
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<div>To further make the point that Allison and Andrew
have voiced, on Monday we blocked traffic from 5 /17s
and 1 /19 assigned to one particular company
(hosting/connectivity for downstream customers) due to
widespread and aggressive malicious traffic originating
from their ASNs. Even cursory checking indicated that
this organization has a not very good reputation and
that reaching out to them would not be a good use of my
time. This was confirmed from various people I know and
trust. While this is IP based rather than DNS based, it
reinforces that people will take steps to protect their
customers and resources when they encounter badness. We
use lots of inputs for making these sorts of decisions.
Loss of visibility from whois/RDS means that we may end
up using blunter tools like blocking based on
registry/registrar reputation. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Mike<br>
</div>
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