<div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">See this is another example of the attitude I'm describing. If you're going to hold the requirement for evidence so high that you're requesting details that they are not willing to hand over (probably the identities of their email addresses that received the spam, or something like that, right? Or a large volume of evidence that would tie up their time procuring?), then you aren't going to get what you want. Your company is just another registrar in a vast ocean of registrars that get complaints, and none of us have time to spend on any of them. Registrars are not trusted by default, either. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can classify that as blackhat behavior if you want, but where is the extortion? They seem to be only requesting that you reduce the volume of lawbreaking customers that pay you money for the opportunity. Find me a judge that won't sympathize with that. The spammers haven't been able to, in all their lawsuits filed against spamhaus.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">There is also the credibility issue. From the perspective of a network operator, when they see a conflict between spamhaus saying something is spam, and a registrar saying they wont do anything about it because the spam email doesnt literally pass through their nameservers(of course it wouldn't), spamhaus has far more credibility than anything your company says. You've already lost in the court of public opinion, which is the only one that matters in this situation. Your domains won't get unblocked.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can complain about blackhat activity till the cows come home but you won't find a judge in the civilized world that will side with you. And if whois goes away, you may find that spamhaus's opinions of your domains are going to affect you even more.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Further verbal assaults against spamhaus only make your company look like a spam friendly organization in the eyes of network operators. It won't get you unblocked and will probably only make the situation worse.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>I can just re-iterate that any responsible registrar will take
      action when provided with actionable evidence of abuse by their
      customers. Reports by black-hats like Spamhouse that usually only
      make unsubstantiated claims and refuse to provide actual evidence
      and instead rely on threats like the ones you are making do not
      deserve the same consideration. We will take any of their reports
      and if they can be independently verified, we will take action,
      but we cannot take their word as gospel.</p>
    <p>The usual communication with them goes something like this:</p>
    <p>Them: "This domain is bad and you should feel bad for having
      registered it."</p>
    <p>Us: "Well, we cannot check that ourselves since the abuse does
      not pass our servers! Can you provide evidence?"</p>
    <p>Them: "Here is the link to the evidence!"</p>
    <p>Us: "That is not evidence, those are claims.  Can you show us
      these claims are true?"</p>
    <p>Them: "We do not share our methodologies."</p>
    <p>Us: "As we cannot confirm the complaint and have seen no evidence
      that we can verify, so I am afraid we cannot help you until you do
      give us something more substantial"</p>
    <p>Them: "If you do not immediately take action, we will: (1) Lie to
      ICANN about you not responding to abuse complaints; (2) blacklist
      your all services even though they were not involved in the
      alleged abuse."<br>
    </p>
    That, to me, is a black hat. They may mean well, but it makes them
    unreliable as a source. We need evidence of abuse to take action,
    not claims and of you cannot provide such evidence, then you have no
    business in fighting abuse. <br><span class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
    <br>
    Volker</font></span><div><div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894h5"><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.11.2017 um 18:39 schrieb allison
      nixon:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">This is the exact attitude I'm referring to. Not
        specifically only from Volker, but also from other people. This
        is why Internet users will increasingly turn their backs on
        ICANN's DNS. Unless the ICANN community steps outside of their
        bubble and actually recognizes the problems the average Internet
        user faces. ICANN may have a monopoly on domain names, but it's
        not immune to consequences caused by bad caretaking. 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>And wholly invalidating the opinions of a blacklist
          provider that enjoys the largest support base (AFAIK) of
          average Internet users is a perfect example of this. It is to
          ignore evidence of a serious defect in your(the collective
          you) own product, when people are actively trying to notify
          you of such. 
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:21 PM,
          Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> I think we are moving
              away from the topic, but suffice it to say that I do not
              consider their publications evidence. "Domains seen"
              indeed... Ignoring them is the better options unless they
              develop better methodologies _and_ start sharing them for
              peer examination.<span class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <br>
                  Volker</font></span>
              <div>
                <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-cite-prefix">Am
                    29.11.2017 um 18:03 schrieb allison nixon:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">Spamhaus's list IS "actual evidence"
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>They are based on domains they have seen,
                        which are e-mails sent using domains from that
                        registrar. Most of the hate out there against
                        Spamhaus comes from spammers but they are AFAIK
                        the largest provider of blocklists out there.
                        That only happens because their customers see
                        the results they want.<br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Love them or hate them, you can't ignore
                        them. If Spamhaus listed an IP range, that range
                        would suffer severe connectivity issues across
                        the entire Internet. When it comes to
                        interoperability, Spamhaus's lists effectively
                        matter more than ICANN's accreditation. The
                        Internet is relying more and more heavily on
                        these services because ICANN has failed to keep
                        its product clean.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at
                        11:51 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            <p>Interesting statistic, but as it is
                              coming from Spamhaus, I'll take it with a
                              grain of salt, especially if the "Domains
                              seen" number does not match the number of
                              domains a registrar actually has under
                              management. I am not disputing that some
                              of these registrars may be problematic,
                              but will reserve judgment until I see some
                              actual evidence. <br>
                              <span class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></p>
                            <span class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                                <p>Volker<br>
                                </p>
                              </font></span>
                            <div>
                              <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352h5"> <br>
                                <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-cite-prefix">Am
                                  29.11.2017 um 17:23 schrieb allison
                                  nixon:<br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote type="cite">
                                  <div dir="ltr">Hi Bastiaan,
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>>>A question though. I
                                      understand how ’TLD blocking’
                                      would work as an effective albeit
                                      sledge hammer way of mitigating
                                      certain forms of spam. And I get
                                      the concept of blocking all
                                      traffic coming from particular
                                      hosting-providers, ignoring cases
                                      where spoofing of prefixes is
                                      involved. But what exactly is
                                      ‘registrar level blocking’?</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>>>The example you refer
                                      to is (also) a
                                      hosting/cloud-provider - but if
                                      that were not the case, what can
                                      ‘blocked’ purely looking at the
                                      registrar service provided?</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>"registrar level blocking"
                                      isn't a feature that's available
                                      to most e-mail inbox owners
                                      because it is a lot more
                                      complicated than writing a
                                      wildcard for example *.xyz for an
                                      entire TLD. It would probably
                                      require a multi step process of
                                      WHOIS querying the domain ->
                                      parse for registrar -> check
                                      block lists. I'm unsure how the
                                      large operators do it exactly.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>But if you look at this page:</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><a href="https://www.spamhaus.org/statistics/registrars/" target="_blank">https://www.spamhaus.org/stati<wbr>stics/registrars/</a><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>you can see a list of which
                                      registrars feature most
                                      prominently in spam. Registrars
                                      that get to the point have a
                                      business model where they profit
                                      from these types of customers.
                                      Alpnames in particular was in the
                                      news because leaked communications
                                      revealed they were aware of the
                                      spamming and offered to not
                                      suspend the domains for abuse. A
                                      bulletproof registrar, if you
                                      will. Despite this incident, and
                                      despite being on the Spamhaus list
                                      of "worst registrars" months
                                      later, they are still an actual
                                      registrar accredited by ICANN. An
                                      equally valid participant in the
                                      DNS as any of you here.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>And that is barely scratching
                                      the surface.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>So you can also see how the
                                      desire to block an entire
                                      registrar's customerbase is
                                      directly linked to ICANN's failure
                                      to decertify the registrar. </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Compare this "not my problem"
                                      attitude to the attitude that the
                                      Google Chrome team has towards its
                                      list of trusted certificate
                                      providers. They have no qualms
                                      about giving the death penalty to
                                      abusers. Google is also requiring
                                      companies to produce "certificate
                                      transparency" logs, a real time
                                      feed of all the certs they sign,
                                      and who they are for. Instead of
                                      wringing their hands about privacy
                                      solely on the website owner's
                                      side, they understand that these
                                      are tools massively used for abuse
                                      and actually take into account the
                                      rights of people being abused by
                                      these tools.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>As a result of these differing
                                      attitudes, the Chrome browser
                                      enjoys a lot of public trust, with
                                      almost no demand for custom trust
                                      lists, and ICANN's naming system
                                      loses legitimacy every day as the
                                      collective masses of the Internet
                                      increasingly turn their backs on
                                      them.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov
                                      29, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Bastiaan
                                      Goslings <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bastiaan.goslings@ams-ix.net" target="_blank">bastiaan.goslings@ams-ix.net</a>></span>
                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thanks,
                                        Allison:<br>
                                        <span><br>
                                          > On 28 Nov 2017, at 22:30,
                                          allison nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
                                          wrote:<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > I do not believe it is
                                          off topic to consider the
                                          downstream implications of the
                                          actions we take. It is of
                                          critical importance!<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > When the WHOIS for
                                          .amsterdam and .frl became
                                          largely obfuscated, I was not
                                          worried much about it, because
                                          the extremely high cost of
                                          those domains precluded abuse
                                          from them in the first place.
                                          For that reason, nothing
                                          happened.<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > In the defender world, if
                                          we lose WHOIS as a reputation
                                          factor, other reputation
                                          factors become much more
                                          prominent. TLD blocking is
                                          very easy with the tools we
                                          already have, but with the
                                          loss of WHOIS we are going to
                                          see a strong upsurge in the
                                          demand for registrar level
                                          blocking. So, say Alpnames is
                                          spamming a lot of people, and
                                          as an owner of an e-mail
                                          inbox, I don't want to get any
                                          more e-mails from Alpnames
                                          customers. Multiple of my
                                          colleagues at large networks
                                          have revealed to me that in
                                          the past, they have done a
                                          registrar level block, and the
                                          economic pressure on the
                                          registrars caused them to
                                          clean up their act with an
                                          impressive amount of
                                          motivation. It's something
                                          that most tools don't
                                          currently support, but likely
                                          will in the future.<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > If the registrars will be
                                          the only people who have any
                                          clue who their customers are,
                                          I think we will see a strong
                                          shift towards forcing those
                                          registrars to take more
                                          responsibility for their
                                          pollution. This is something I
                                          am seeing increasingly
                                          advocated in defender circles,
                                          so outsiders are likely going
                                          to see the results of this in
                                          upcoming years.<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > With the direction I see
                                          things going, I believe that
                                          anti-abuse will involve
                                          imposing economic pressure on
                                          registrars. It's not unlike
                                          how notorious hosting
                                          providers have been de-peered
                                          in the past due to abuse, and
                                          there is a lot of legal
                                          precedent to support the
                                          legitimacy of this strategy.<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > Also, many of us outside
                                          the ICANN community don't see
                                          the death of the new TLDs as a
                                          bad thing. More people are
                                          interested in blocking them
                                          than supporting them.
                                          Companies are also realizing
                                          that it isn't a good idea to
                                          run their businesses on new
                                          TLDs.  Some of us will cheer
                                          when they finally go away.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                        </span>Without any specific
                                        knowledge of the industry, your
                                        line of reasoning makes sense to
                                        me, i.e. ‘If the registrars will
                                        be the only people who have any
                                        clue who their customers are, I
                                        think we will see a strong shift
                                        towards forcing those registrars
                                        to take more responsibility’ as
                                        well as the ‘anti-abuse will
                                        involve imposing economic
                                        pressure on registrars’.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        (Fyi I will not comment on the
                                        ’their pollution’)<br>
                                        <br>
                                        A question though. I understand
                                        how ’TLD blocking’ would work as
                                        an effective albeit sledge
                                        hammer way of mitigating certain
                                        forms of spam. And I get the
                                        concept of blocking all traffic
                                        coming from particular
                                        hosting-providers, ignoring
                                        cases where spoofing of prefixes
                                        is involved. But what exactly is
                                        ‘registrar level blocking’?<br>
                                        <br>
                                        The example you refer to is
                                        (also) a hosting/cloud-provider
                                        - but if that were not the case,
                                        what can ‘blocked’ purely
                                        looking at the registrar service
                                        provided?<br>
                                        <br>
                                        -Bastiaan<br>
                                        <div>
                                          <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898h5"><br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at
                                            3:11 PM, theo geurts <<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            > Agreed Kris,<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Thanks, Allison, though
                                            this is, I guess, the cold
                                            hard truth, selling domains
                                            dirt cheap or giving them
                                            away is a sure method to
                                            poison a TLD, I think it is
                                            a separate issue when
                                            discussing RDS.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > And the examples are
                                            clear, and at a point, such
                                            TLD operators need to
                                            re-think their business
                                            model and act accordingly to
                                            keep their TLD alive.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > So in May 2018, we will
                                            see a lot of use of the
                                            privacy services due to the
                                            GDPR, I guess mostly at a
                                            Registrar level, but let's
                                            not rule out that it might
                                            be on a Registry level, the
                                            dynamics here are shifting
                                            day by day.<br>
                                            > So my question here,
                                            and I hope we can discuss
                                            this in good faith, but it
                                            seems to me that the WHOIS
                                            will be an irrelevant factor
                                            when it comes to the
                                            risk/reputation score?<br>
                                            > How does/will that play
                                            out?<br>
                                            > And yes, this is not
                                            exactly related to our work
                                            when it comes to RDS, but
                                            since we have the expertise
                                            here, I think it would be
                                            useful to explore this a
                                            little more even though off
                                            topic. I hope the leadership
                                            team allows this to get a
                                            better understanding, for
                                            the community on what is
                                            going down and might happen
                                            in a just a few months here.<br>
                                            > And if we need to do
                                            this offlist, sure, no
                                            problem. I am just trying to
                                            get a sense to here to
                                            comply with the law and keep
                                            a business running.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Thanks<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Theo<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > On 28-11-2017 20:57,
                                            John Bambenek via
                                            gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br>
                                            >> Full agreement on
                                            this point<br>
                                            >><br>
                                            >> On 11/28/2017 01:30
                                            PM, Kris Seeburn wrote:<br>
                                            >>> As we move on
                                            …one way or the other the
                                            GDPR and other aligned
                                            privacy laws will catch up
                                            eventually. We will need to
                                            find levels and technical
                                            ways and reasons to get
                                            things to work. We move to
                                            RDAPis fine as we look ahead
                                            but we should be able to not
                                            only look at the laws that
                                            we need to respect but also
                                            to find technical ways to
                                            get and make sure things
                                            still continue towork. As
                                            this stage personally both
                                            are as important.<br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>>> On Nov 28,
                                            2017, at 23:15, allison
                                            nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Most
                                            systems operators are not
                                            afraid to block entire TLDs.
                                            While there are no
                                            scientific studies out on
                                            this matter AFAIK, the help
                                            forums are littered with
                                            people asking how to block
                                            entire TLDs, and also
                                            registrants on those TLDs
                                            asking why everyone is
                                            blocking them. It's enough
                                            to conclusively say this is
                                            already an issue, and we can
                                            thank abuse for this.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> In this
                                            Reddit post, a user learns
                                            the hard truth about his
                                            brand new XYZ domain:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/6jq6f5/getting_blocked_should_i_abandon_my_xyz_domain/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.reddit.com/r/webde<wbr>v/comments/6jq6f5/getting_bloc<wbr>ked_should_i_abandon_my_xyz_do<wbr>main/</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> This
                                            article discusses Facebook's
                                            block of all XYZ domains:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://adamyamada.com/facebook-blocks-xyz-domains-new-domains-pages/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://adamyamada.com/facebook<wbr>-blocks-xyz-domains-new-domain<wbr>s-pages/</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> This
                                            Malwarebytes staff member
                                            explains to a legitimate
                                            registrant that all .SCIENCE
                                            TLDs are blocked and he gets
                                            no exception:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/173535-all-my-science-domains-blocked/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://forums.malwarebytes.co<wbr>m/topic/173535-all-my-science-<wbr>domains-blocked/</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> In fact,
                                            the Malwarebytes "false
                                            positive" forum is littered
                                            with owners of hacked
                                            domains that discovered
                                            their problem because of a
                                            block, not because of a
                                            notification:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://forums.malwarebytes.com/forum/123-website-blocking/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://forums.malwarebytes.co<wbr>m/forum/123-website-blocking/</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> This user
                                            asks for an 'Existing list
                                            of garbage "new" TLDs' to
                                            block<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://vamsoft.com/forum/topic/597/existing-list-of-garbage-new-tlds" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://vamsoft.com/forum/topi<wbr>c/597/existing-list-of-garbage<wbr>-new-tlds</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> There are
                                            179 Google search results
                                            for people asking
                                            Microsoft's help service for
                                            ways to block entire TLDs:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+i+block+TLD+site:answers.microsoft.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?<wbr>q=how+do+i+block+TLD+site:answ<wbr>ers.microsoft.com</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> There are
                                            72,500 Google search results
                                            for "how to block" "tld":<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=%22how+to+block%22+%22tld%22" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?<wbr>q=%22how+to+block%22+%22tld%22</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> The
                                            Internet is effectively
                                            "broken" for any legitimate
                                            registrants on these TLDs.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> As a seller
                                            of some of those same TLDs,
                                            should you be concerned if
                                            your customers purchase
                                            domains rendered useless due
                                            to blocking?<br>
                                            >>>> Would you
                                            actually refund a customer
                                            if they told you they
                                            couldn't use the domain for
                                            e-mail due to the TLD?<br>
                                            >>>> Would you
                                            warn your prospective .XYZ,
                                            .STUDY, .PRESS, .PARTY, etc,
                                            customers that they should
                                            not use the domains for
                                            e-mail?<br>
                                            >>>> When ICANN
                                            releases new gTLDs in the
                                            future, do you think that
                                            those domains will ever be
                                            able to send e-mail?<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Truly, the
                                            rest of the world will be
                                            fine. The more that ICANN
                                            has the "not my problem"
                                            attitude, the more the rest
                                            of the world is going to
                                            push back. ICANN seems to
                                            have lost the ability to
                                            release new gTLDs without
                                            severe connectivity issues,
                                            so we also need to ask the
                                            question: "why are these
                                            guys selling the digital
                                            equivalent of the scarlet
                                            letter and not warning their
                                            customers beforehand?"<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> I think the
                                            question of selling
                                            defective products is one
                                            that needs to be addressed
                                            more seriously by regulators
                                            and outside parties.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> I can also
                                            tell you that security
                                            vendors are already looking
                                            into other anti-abuse
                                            techniques for domains
                                            post-WHOIS, and I can also
                                            tell you that they will
                                            result in an increase in the
                                            percentage of legitimate
                                            domains that are blocked.
                                            This is your problem now.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> On Tue, Nov
                                            28, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Volker
                                            Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            >>>> Hi Andrew,<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> re:hotbed I
                                            was rather intending to ask
                                            whether there is a direct
                                            correllation between TLDs
                                            with redacted whois and
                                            issues that go unresolved.
                                            So do you have more
                                            unresolved issues in .<a href="http://co.uk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">co.uk</a>
                                            than in .com (if numbers are
                                            normalized for registered
                                            domain names).<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> I am sure
                                            no one would consider
                                            blocking the entire mail
                                            traffic originating from the
                                            United Kingdom Top Level
                                            Domain just because you
                                            cannot resolve some issues
                                            in a few domains, correct?<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> So if
                                            everyone followed their (or
                                            a similar) model, the
                                            internet would not break.
                                            Some issues would get harder
                                            to solve (or take longer). I
                                            am asking because that is
                                            what most likely will happen
                                            on May 25 or sooner.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Volker<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Am
                                            28.11.2017 um 18:27 schrieb
                                            Andrew Sullivan:<br>
                                            >>>> On Tue, Nov
                                            28, 2017 at 04:31:56PM
                                            +0100, Volker Greimann
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            >>>> case of
                                            internet operability issues.
                                            While I appreciate that
                                            there can be<br>
                                            >>>> issues that
                                            would necessitate the
                                            ability to quickly contact
                                            whoever can fix<br>
                                            >>>> the issue,
                                            I wonder how this problem is
                                            solved in TLDs where whois
                                            is<br>
                                            >>>> already
                                            redacted.<br>
                                            >>>> It's not. 
                                            In that case, if I am the
                                            one who has this experience
                                            and I<br>
                                            >>>> can't reach
                                            the target, then the problem
                                            goes unresolved.  In mail<br>
                                            >>>> cases, as
                                            John suggests elsewhere in
                                            this thread, the answer is
                                            very<br>
                                            >>>> likely that
                                            mail is blocked.  People
                                            seem surprised these days
                                            that<br>
                                            >>>> mail is so
                                            fragile, but this sort of
                                            thing is part of the reason.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> So how does
                                            it work there? Are these
                                            TLDs hotbeds of DNS issues
                                            and<br>
                                            >>>> unresolved
                                            problems?<br>
                                            >>>> I don't
                                            know what you mean by
                                            "hotbed", or whether that is
                                            intended to<br>
                                            >>>> be
                                            dismissive.  Some TLDs
                                            defintely have more DNS
                                            problems than<br>
                                            >>>> others. 
                                            Given how hard the DNS works
                                            to make connections happen
                                            even<br>
                                            >>>> when things
                                            are badly misconfigured,
                                            lots of stuff will work to
                                            some<br>
                                            >>>> extent even
                                            when it is badly
                                            configured.  But DNS
                                            operations people<br>
                                            >>>> trade
                                            stories about problems
                                            amongst themselves, after
                                            giving up on<br>
                                            >>>> sites
                                            because whois can't help and
                                            the mname in the SOA record
                                            is<br>
                                            >>>> broken.  I
                                            find this happens more often
                                            than you might expect.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> But yes,
                                            there are broken domains on
                                            the Internet.  I find it
                                            hard to<br>
                                            >>>> believe
                                            that would be even slightly
                                            remarkable.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Best
                                            regards,<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> A<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> --<br>
                                            >>>> Bei
                                            weiteren Fragen stehen wir
                                            Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Mit
                                            freundlichen Grüßen,<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Volker A.
                                            Greimann<br>
                                            >>>> -
                                            Rechtsabteilung -<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Key-Systems
                                            GmbH<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Im
                                              Oberen Werk 1</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">66386
                                              St. Ingbert</a><br>
                                            >>>> Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49
                                              (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><br>
                                            >>>> Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49
                                              (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><br>
                                            >>>> Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a>
                                            / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a>
                                            / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Folgen Sie
                                            uns bei Twitter oder werden
                                            Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>>
                                            Geschäftsführer: Alexander
                                            Siffrin<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            Handelsregister Nr.: HR B
                                            18835 - Saarbruecken<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            Umsatzsteuer ID.:
                                            DE211006534<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Member of
                                            the KEYDRIVE GROUP<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Der Inhalt
                                            dieser Nachricht ist
                                            vertraulich und nur für den
                                            angegebenen Empfänger
                                            bestimmt. Jede Form der
                                            Kenntnisgabe,
                                            Veröffentlichung oder
                                            Weitergabe an Dritte durch
                                            den Empfänger ist
                                            unzulässig. Sollte diese
                                            Nachricht nicht für Sie
                                            bestimmt sein, so bitten wir
                                            Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail
                                            oder telefonisch in
                                            Verbindung zu setzen.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>>
                                            ------------------------------<wbr>--------------<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Should you
                                            have any further questions,
                                            please do not hesitate to
                                            contact us.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Best
                                            regards,<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Volker A.
                                            Greimann<br>
                                            >>>> - legal
                                            department -<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Key-Systems
                                            GmbH<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Im
                                              Oberen Werk 1</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">66386
                                              St. Ingbert</a><br>
                                            >>>> Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49
                                              (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><br>
                                            >>>> Fax.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49
                                              (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><br>
                                            >>>> Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a>
                                            / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a>
                                            / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Follow us
                                            on Twitter or join our fan
                                            community on Facebook and
                                            stay updated:<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> CEO:
                                            Alexander Siffrin<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            Registration No.: HR B 18835
                                            - Saarbruecken<br>
                                            >>>> V.A.T. ID.:
                                            DE211006534<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> Member of
                                            the KEYDRIVE GROUP<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> This e-mail
                                            and its attachments is
                                            intended only for the person
                                            to whom it is addressed.
                                            Furthermore it is not
                                            permitted to publish any
                                            content of this email. You
                                            must not use, disclose,
                                            copy, print or rely on this
                                            e-mail. If an addressing or
                                            transmission error has
                                            misdirected this e-mail,
                                            kindly notify the author by
                                            replying to this e-mail or
                                            contacting us by telephone.<br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>>
                                            ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>><br>
                                            >>>> --<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            ______________________________<wbr>___<br>
                                            >>>> Note to
                                            self: Pillage BEFORE
                                            burning.<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                            >>>>
                                            gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
                                            >>>> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                            >>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                            >>> Kris Seeburn<br>
                                            >>> <a href="mailto:seeburn.k@gmail.com" target="_blank">seeburn.k@gmail.com</a><br>
                                            >>>     • <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/</a><br>
                                            >>><br>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        >>>
                                        <KeepItOn_Social_animated.gif><br>
                                        >>><br>
                                        >>><br>
                                        >>><br>
                                        >>>
                                        ______________________________<br>
                                        <span>>>>
                                          _________________<br>
                                          >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg
                                          mailing list<br>
                                          >>><br>
                                          >>> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                          >>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                          >><br>
                                          >><br>
                                          >><br>
                                        </span>>>
                                        ______________________________<br>
                                        <span class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898im
m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898HOEnZb">>>
                                          _________________<br>
                                          >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg
                                          mailing list<br>
                                          >><br>
                                          >> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                          >> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                          ><br>
                                          ><br>
                                          >
                                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                          > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing
                                          list<br>
                                          > <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                          > <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                          ><br>
                                          ><br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > --<br>
                                          >
                                          ______________________________<wbr>___<br>
                                          > Note to self: Pillage
                                          BEFORE burning.<br>
                                        </span>
                                        <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898HOEnZb">
                                          <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898h5">>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                            > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing
                                            list<br>
                                            > <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                            > <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                                            <br>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                    <br clear="all">
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    -- <br>
                                    <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
                                      Note to self: Pillage BEFORE
                                      burning.</div>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
                                  <fieldset class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                                  <br>
                                  <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></pre>
                                </blockquote>
                                <br>
                                <pre class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

------------------------------<wbr>--------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352m_-847882815422705898moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.



</pre>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <br>
                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                          gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
                          <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                          <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <br clear="all">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      -- <br>
                      <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
                        Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                  <pre class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

------------------------------<wbr>--------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737m_-6593500956563796352moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.



</pre>
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            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        -- <br>
        <div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
          Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

------------------------------<wbr>--------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894m_-3258645503691039737moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.



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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="m_-9220732214027584385m_7168477860784410894gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>