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<p>What does this have to do with whois?<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.11.2017 um 22:05 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACLR7w+gKyyfqvgWKMmxUNWeifvhYf5pjDmfHHw-SyuEX=inrQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Yes, absolutely.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You (collectively) have no legal right to force me to
accept traffic. And if I were to block you due to abuse, there
would be no appeal escalations above me. No lawsuit has ever
been won to force unblocking related to abuse.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To follow Dotzero's example, I'd like to note the following
example. If you use Tor to access any Cloudflare website, you
can't. Why? If you have the time to read lengthy
back-and-forths, this is an excellent example of the graveyard
many of you insist on whistling past:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18361"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18361</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Summary of that ticket: A Tor representative states that
Tor has problems reaching Cloudflare due to hard captchas. A
Cloudflare representative states that this is because of
abuse. The Tor community proceeds to plug their ears and say
lalalala, the Tor network is full of activists, and definitely
not hackers! Tor cherry picks some numbers from Akamai that
support their argument, calling Cloudflare's numbers
unscientific, but admits to no abuse issue. After that ticket
concluded, Cloudflare implemented optional blocking features
against Tor. Tor had even appealed to the media, trying to
stop Cloudflare by making them look bad. Didn't work. And, as
of a few weeks ago, Tor is wholly blocked on Cloudflare,
because the Google captcha service blocked Tor too. Cloudflare
hasn't noticed this for weeks, but Tor is severely impacted
and no one cares.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The lesson to learn here is that if you're trying to
convince a network operator that their abuse statistics from
you are imaginary, they are still going to block you, and they
really won't care about your opinion or your losses. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To further illustrate how much our values don't align, yet
still affect you, defenders also don't care about the well
being of registrars/hosting companies themselves. I've heard
my colleagues speak about bankrupting abuse friendly
companies. To quote one unnamed colleague who actually did
bankrupt an abuse friendly company via network blocks, causing
a customer exodus: "They threatened to sue me... but they went
bankrupt so fast they couldn't pay their lawyers!", which was
met with laughter and approval by all. Nothing bad happened to
him, and even if he were sued, his company would protect him.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are the attitudes that the gatekeepers of the largest
global networks have towards the hosting and domain industry.
The same numbers youall want to reject as "unscientific" are
used to make decisions that bankrupt companies in your
industry. Keep whistling, if you want. ICANN won't save you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you don't like this, you have several ways out. You can
take steps to collectively and materially reduce the volume of
abuse, or you can give private network owners the ability to
block on a granular level. If you want to eliminate WHOIS,
then your bad customers and your good must necessarily share
the same fate. In much the same way that the good and bad
registrars share the same fate with their *.XYZ domains. This
isn't something that's up for debate- this is something that's
going to happen.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:28 PM,
Andrew Sullivan <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear
colleagues,<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 06:21:16PM +0100, Volker Greimann
wrote:<br>
> suffice it to say that I do<br>
> not consider their publications evidence. "Domains
seen" indeed... Ignoring<br>
> them is the better options unless they develop better
methodologies _and_<br>
> start sharing them for peer examination.<br>
<br>
> Am 29.11.2017 um 18:03 schrieb allison nixon:<br>
<br>
> > Love them or hate them, you can't ignore them. If
Spamhaus listed an IP<br>
> > range, that range would suffer severe connectivity
issues across the<br>
> > entire Internet. When it comes to
interoperability, Spamhaus's lists<br>
> > effectively matter more than ICANN's
accreditation.<br>
<br>
I think that the above two snippets neatly describe the
point I, at<br>
least, have been trying to make about the Internet's
operational<br>
reality.<br>
<br>
Volker's assertion appears to be that the right thing
according to the<br>
agreed-upon evaluation criteria is what ought to be guiding
us.<br>
<br>
Allison's claim, however, is that there are operational
realities on<br>
the Internet, and that operators are going to do whatever
they do and<br>
that the ICANN community policies had better take those
interests into<br>
account, or find that the policies are irrelevant.<br>
<br>
I would go further even than Allison does, because in my
opinion she<br>
is describing the _design_ of the Internet: it's
_inter_networking,<br>
and the only basis upon which it happens is the voluntary<br>
interoperation by operators. On my network, I get to decide
what I'm<br>
willing to accept. That might not include everything on the
Internet.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
A<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Andrew Sullivan<br>
<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
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moz-do-not-send="true">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
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