<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I apologize for not voting in the recent poll. If I had, I would have voted the same way as Gregory Mounier did, with essentially the same underlying thoughts. I note Nathalie's suggestion, but I agree with John that we haven't even reached that point yet -- we first need to decide whether the purpose is legitimate or not , and then (if it is legitimate) whether it is primary or secondary.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">There is a fundamental concept that I think is getting lost here -- RDS/Whois does not exist to serve the registrar/registrant relationship, it (they?) exists to serve the needs of the DNS ecosystem, which by definition includes law enforcement, anti-abuse, and anti-IP-infringement activity, as well as actual and potential transferees. The RDS should be viewed as a fundamental part of the system and processes that keep the DNS working (not just technically, but in terms of security, trust, and the free movement of domain names).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:02 PM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">If its not a legitimate purpose, then its not a secondary purpose either. The language of the purposed agreement makes no accommodation for such a compromise even IF it were acceptable and its not. <br><br><div id="m_1421836383924263831AppleMailSignature">--<div>John Bambenek</div></div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On Jan 15, 2018, at 15:38, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151"><span>Hi Gregory,</span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151"><span><br></span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87194">I was expecting this objection be raised by law enforcement. But, in a spirit of compromise, let's remember a resolution a member made earlier about the implementation of GDPR: we were going to distinguish between primary purpose and secondary purpose (those not directly based on the contract between the registrant and the registrar) and beef up 'secondary purposes'. While this might seem unnatural, it allows us to apply the GDPR's distinction while preserving the use of WHOIS for law enforcement and abuse mitigation people. </span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87824">This is important when submitting the WG's and ultimately ICANN's rationale to the DPA's review: let's not increase the attack surface. We can make sure that despite this use not being granted full legitimate status for collection, there will be enough data available for this use by allowing additional collection, if need be. </span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_88263">The fact that a purpose is direct or indirect based on the contract between the reigstrant and the registrar - the initial consent of the registrant being the cirteria for determining which purpose is primary (a.k.a 'legitimate') and which one is not (i.e 'secondary') - could really alleviate our quest for a compromise and still protect ICANN and registrars. </span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span>I fear we'll still be here discussing this until we all turn blue and still not get anywhere. I'm sure no one in the group believes your work is less important, and we'll protect your access to information as much as we can. </span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span>We just need to create this little artifice to protect registrars and ICANN, so DPA's wont breathe down our necks. </span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87151" dir="ltr"><span id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_88264">Why not give it a try? </span></div><div></div><div id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87152"> </div><div class="m_1421836383924263831signature" id="m_1421836383924263831yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516045424182_87154">Nathalie </div> <div class="m_1421836383924263831qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="m_1421836383924263831yahoo_quoted" style="display:block"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, January 15, 2018 8:30 AM, "Mounier, Grégory" <<a href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu" target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.<wbr>europa.eu</a>> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="m_1421836383924263831y_msg_container"><div id="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417">
<div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417WordSection1">
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify">Dear all,</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"> </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">I will not be able to join the call tomorrow so I thought that I should drop an email to the list to explain why I voted against the proposed possible WG Agreement according to which “<i>Criminal
Activity/DNS Abuse – Investigation is NOT a legitimate purpose for requiring collection of registration data, but maybe a legitimate purpose of using some data collected for other purposes</i>.”</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">I think that there are a number of rationales/grounds - including in ICANN’s Bylaws - to argue that in fact, investigating criminal activity and DNS Abuse
<b>IS</b> a legitimate purpose for requiring the collection of registration data.
</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">Some of these rationales have been mentioned during the discussion on the mailing list and during the call on 9<sup>th</sup> January. Unfortunately, I think that the proposed possible WG agreement
does not take into consideration these rationales. I specifically disagree with the assumption that we should make a distinction between 1) the purpose of collecting the data and 2) the purpose for using the data collected for other purposes (manage domain
registrations). </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">The reason why I disagree with making this distinction is that it leads to artificially reduce the importance of a valid and legitimate purpose of the WHOIS system, acknowledged by ICANN Bylaws:
addressing malicious abuse of the DNS and providing a framework to address appropriate law enforcement needs. (ICANN’s mandate is to “ensure the stable and secure operation of the internet’s unique identifier systems”<a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftn1" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftnref1" title="" target="_blank"><sup><sup><span style="font-size:12.0pt">[1]</span></sup></sup></a>
+ WHOIS data is essential for “the legitimate needs of law enforcement” and for “promoting consumer trust.”<a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftn2" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftnref2" title="" target="_blank"><sup><sup><span style="font-size:12.0pt">[2]</span></sup></sup></a>
). In its document on the three compliance models issued last Friday<a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftn3" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftnref3" title="" target="_blank"><sup><sup><span style="font-size:12.0pt">[3]</span></sup></sup></a>,
ICANN has explicitly included: addressing the needs of law enforcement, investigation of cybercrime and DNS abuse as legitimate purposes of the WHOIS system.</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">If one of the purpose of the WHOIS system is to support a framework to address issues involving domain name registrations, including investigation of cybercrime and DNS abuse, it can be argued
that investigating criminal activity and DNS abuse IS a legitimate purpose for requiring the collection of registration data. Likewise, I think that requiring collection of registration data to prevent crime is NOT beyond ICANN's mandate because this data
is essential for ICANN to fulfil its mandate. </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal">I have attached a list of relevant references supporting this point of view taken from ICANN’s Bylaws and the GDPR.
</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal">I hope that you’ll find this contribution helpful and I’m looking forward to reading the transcript of the next call
<span style="font-family:Wingdings">J</span>.</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">Best, </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify">Greg</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify"> </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Gregory Mounier</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Europol</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">European Cybercrime Centre</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:+31%206%2055782743" value="+31655782743" target="_blank">+31 6 55782743</a></span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg [<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chuck<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 January 2018 15:21<br>
<b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT: Invitation for Poll from 9 January Meeting<br>
<b>Importance:</b> High</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">The response to this week’s poll is particularly low so I strongly encourage more members to respond so that we have enough data to help us in our meeting next week. Thanks to those who have
already responded.</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Chuck</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" name="m_1421836383924263831__MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></a></div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg [</span><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marika Konings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] IMPORTANT: Invitation for Poll from 9 January Meeting</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear all,</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">In follow-up to this week’s WG meeting, <b>all RDS PDP WG Members</b> are encouraged to participate in the following poll:</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/VM6S8YK" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">https://www.surveymonkey.com/<wbr>r/VM6S8YK</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"></span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Responses should be submitted through the above URL. For offline reference, a PDF of poll questions can also be found at:</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><a rel="nofollow" href="https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/74580034/Poll-from-9January-Call.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1515544361000&api=v2" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">https://<wbr>community.icann.org/download/<wbr>attachments/74580034/Poll-<wbr>from-9January-Call.pdf?<wbr>version=1&modificationDate=<wbr>1515544361000&api=v2</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"></span></span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">This poll will close at COB Saturday 13 January. </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"></span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Please note that you <u>must be a WG Member</u> to participate in polls. If you are a WG Observer wishing to participate in polls, you must first contact </span><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">gnso-secs@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> to
upgrade to WG Member.</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Best regards,</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Marika</span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Marika Konings</span></i></b></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Vice President, Policy Development Support – GNSO, Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) </span></i></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Email: </span>
</i><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">marika.konings@icann.org</span></i></a><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></i></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></i></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Follow the GNSO via Twitter @ICANN_GNSO</span></i></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">Find out more about the GNSO by taking our </span></i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://learn.icann.org/courses/gnso" target="_blank"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">interactive courses</span></i></a><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> and
visiting the </span></i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://gnso.icann.org/sites/gnso.icann.org/files/gnso/presentations/policy-efforts.htm#newcomers" target="_blank"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">GNSO Newcomer pages</span></i></a><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">. </span></i></div>
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
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<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteText"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftnref1" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftn1" title="" target="_blank"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">[1]</span></span></span></span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span><span lang="EN-US">ICANN Bylaws Article One, Section 1.1, Mission.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span></div>
</div>
<div id="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417ftn2">
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteText"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftnref2" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftn2" title="" target="_blank"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">[2]</span></span></span></span></a><span lang="EN-US">
ICANN Bylaws, Registration Directory Services Review, §4.6(e).</span></div>
</div>
<div id="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417ftn3">
<div class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteText"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma#_ftnref3" name="m_1421836383924263831__ftn3" title="" target="_blank"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US"><span class="m_1421836383924263831yiv0851936417MsoFootnoteReference"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">[3]</span></span></span></span></a><span lang="EN-US">
<a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/interim-models-gdpr-compliance-12jan18-en.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/<wbr>system/files/files/interim-<wbr>models-gdpr-compliance-<wbr>12jan18-en.pdf</a></span></div>
</div>
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