<div>There is not a process that works. Its inadequacy, I felt, was widely acknowledged  both within the ICANN community and by ICANN the organisation.<br></div><div><br></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block"><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>Ayden  <br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div> On 13 February 2018 5:09 PM, Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I agree, Michael – any single jurisdiction should not dictate the framework.  We should of course take into account legal norms – including regulations such
 as the GDPR.   We should also recall that to the extent any registrar or registry wishes to deviate from their contractual WHOIS obligations (or whatever takes their place in a future RDS), because of a conflict with local privacy laws, there is a process
 for them to do so. </span></span></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></span></b><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dotzero<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:04 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Volker Greimann<br> <b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal">Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an international organization
 - primarily dealing with technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an approach that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your proposed approach, quite simply does not do that.<br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">Michael Hammer<br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<br></p><div><p>I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a basis and start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts with other applicable laws, we should make sure to accomodate those as well, but as the EU Commission and others have pointed out is that compliance
 with GDPR does not preclude providing certain access levels to certain parties. What those levels would be and who those parties could be should be the main focus of our work.<br></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Volker,<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should be designed to comply with European regulations and then applied to all other jurisdictions in the world?<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Chuck<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Volker Greimann [<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>] <br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> Chuck <a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com"><consult@cgomes.com></a>; 'Michael Palage' <a href="mailto:michael@palage.com"><michael@palage.com></a><br></div><div> <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful<br></div><p></p></div></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p>I am afraid that if we create different policies for different regions, we will break the model, encourage forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not what we are doing here.<br></p><p>GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by proposing a unified model once again.<br></p><p>Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of registration data as well as the rights of the data subjects, there is no reason why it should not be universally applicable.<br></p><p>Best,<br></p><p>Volker<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Volker,<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">The WG could recommend policies that are ‘universally applicable to all registrations’ but I seriously doubt that will happen in today’s world.  That would be much simpler than
 policies that vary by region and users, but is it realistic?<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Chuck<br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> gnso-rds-pdp-wg [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Volker Greimann<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> Michael Palage <a href="mailto:michael@palage.com"><michael@palage.com></a><br></div><div> <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful<br></div><p></p></div></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of “One World; one Internet”. This also means that the policies it creates should be universally applicable to all registrations,
 if possible. IF we start creating policy that diverges, that would only lead to further fragmentation and undermine the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should be to create one policy that can be applied to all or most registrations and that can be
 implemented by all registrars alike. <br></p><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">While we will likely have a certain amount of fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted party applies its own solution, it should be our goal to overcome this and present
 a new unified policy that works for all contracted parties. <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Volker<br></p><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><br></div><p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage <<a href="mailto:michael@palage.com">michael@palage.com</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Greg/John,<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">I will respectfully push back on your legal over simplification of the GDPR.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU residents/citizens.  As Michele has noted in the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
 Irish legal entity to protect all of its customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with GDPR, as well as US entities that target and conduct business within the EU.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Now your points about the distinction between natural and legal persons is a fair one and one that has been noted in EU and Art 29 communications.  Could you please share the basis
 of your proposition that 97% of all domain name registrations are registered by legal entities.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">As I have note previously the long term viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder model is at risk as national governments continue to pass national laws that impact the operation
 of the Internet.  However, the European Union is NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation, in fact data localization is perhaps the next biggest lurking threat to the domain name system. <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Michael<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Greg Aaron <<a href="mailto:gca@icginc.com">gca@icginc.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Cc:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful<br></div><p></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(68, 68, 68)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">I think Greg is right on. There's simply no justification to force a law that is only intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
 that are b) natural persons not using the domain name for commercial purposes, to the remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's registrant population? That would be a balanced way to implement all of this. </span></span><br></p></div></div></div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(7, 55, 99)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">John Horton<br> President and CEO, LegitScript</span></span></p></div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ" id="m_692055522894869952_x005f_x0000_i1025" height="36" width="96" border="0" class="proton-embedded"><br></p></div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(68, 68, 68)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">Follow</span></span></span></b><b><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(11, 83, 148)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt"> </span></span></span></b><b><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">Legit<span class="colour" style="color:rgb(11, 83, 148)">Script</span></span></span></b><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_company_legitscript-2Dcom&d=DwMFaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=MnL0DaGK44Xa9WEHXtgiJa-Dsa_2TZ5RCXN75zMQ6c0&s=ZNlsL3HkOUSrj6H3HaiIqByBxK3JHOO_sDEF4RRfYx4&e="><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(204, 0, 0)">LinkedIn</span></a> 
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 |  <u><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(255, 153, 0)"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__blog.legitscript.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=MnL0DaGK44Xa9WEHXtgiJa-Dsa_2TZ5RCXN75zMQ6c0&s=iW2nS0CscTIzmxUkn9jT-JGdeGGgEn_MJniVHKoROLE&e="><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(17, 85, 204)">Blog</span></a></span></u>  |<span class="colour" style="color:rgb(255, 153, 0)">  <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.legitscript.com_Subscription-2DManagement.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=MnL0DaGK44Xa9WEHXtgiJa-Dsa_2TZ5RCXN75zMQ6c0&s=TaiTEl9U6Gyw1XTcQjwYmtQhBwVYNEwf_DBQ6dM3l7A&e="><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(255, 153, 0)">Newsletter</span></a></span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(255, 153, 0)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt"><img src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png" id="m_692055522894869952_x005f_x0000_i1026" height="96" width="46" border="0" class="proton-embedded"><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ" id="m_692055522894869952_x005f_x0000_i1027" height="97" width="47" border="0" class="proton-embedded"></span></span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron <<a href="mailto:gca@icginc.com"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">gca@icginc.com</span></a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">I don’t know if we arrive at the same place. <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">GDPR is based on one principle.  It states what is legal.  It's explicit about what you _are allowed to do_; granted there’s some flexibility and room for interpretation.   It’s
 like saying what’s inside a box.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">U.S. law is one based on different principles.  AFAIK U.S. consumer protection law does not enumerate specifically what is lawful.  Instead it tends to state what is illegal, what
 you are _not allowed to do_.   It’s like saying what’s outside the box.   The U.S. doesn’t have something like GDPR that spells out legal bases for collecting data, i.e. the enumerated allowable reasons.  Instead the trade and consumer protection laws basically
 say: entities have the right to form contracts between themselves, they should live up to the contract, don’t surprise people, don’t do certain dishonest things.  <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR principle the ICANN standard and you apply it to all registrations, then practices that are allowable in one place under the law (like
 the U.S.) would no longer be allowed there by ICANN policy.   ICANN would be choosing one legal approach or regime for everyone in the world. <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">The alternative is to apply the GDRP only to those that it is designed to protect:  registrants in the EU.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law that prohibits a U.S. registrar from having a contract that says publication of full contact data in WHOIS is  a condition of registering
 a domain name if you are a registrant in the U.S.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">See<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__iapp.org_news_a_explaining-2Dthe-2Dgdpr-2Dto-2Dan-2Damerican_&d=DwMFaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=MnL0DaGK44Xa9WEHXtgiJa-Dsa_2TZ5RCXN75zMQ6c0&s=HR7E74IbLN2-Xhfn1tX5fkjRdhqvSFbEexgHkr8K64Y&e="><span class="colour" style="color:purple">https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/</span></a> 
 for more.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a>]<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">vgreimann@key-systems.net</span></a>>;<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><br></div><p></p></div><div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><br></div><div><b>Subject:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful<br></div><p></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive, although also rather open-ended (hence our current pickle).  But regardless of the term we use, don’t we arrive
 at the same place:  which is that if something that requires a legal basis is done without one, it will be unlawful?  Using Kathy’s example, if data is processed without complying with minimization or purpose principles, will such processing not run afoul
 of the law, and hence be unlawful? <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">There are important distinctions between the meaning of “legal basis” which implies that a law requires something to be affirmatively present, versus
 “lawful”, which means that something is not prohibited by law.  Ultimately though, isn’t “lawfulness”, the same end point, regardless? <span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span><br></p></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></span></b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt"> </span></span></span><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">gnso-rds-pdp-wg
 [</span></span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple"><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></span></span></a><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">]<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Volker Greimann<br> <b>Sent:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM<br> <b>To:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple"><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></span></span></a><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt"><br> <b>Subject:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful</span></span></p></div></div></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems sound. The flexibility within the GDPR still only allows processing in
 very specific cicumstances, all of which are listed in the GDPR.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria Sheckler:<br></p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a practical level when one looks at the GDPR and what it says about when data can be processed.  The GDPR allows for flexibility for what can be
 processed and when, and kathy’s analysis overlooks that point.<br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a>]<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kathy Kleiman<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful<br></div><p></p></div></div></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck, and following up on the discussion of Sam and Tapani, let me add that criteria for processing must be clearer than something broadly within
 ICANN's mission statement and something permissible somewhere. The requirements under law are express and concrete.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and c) states:</span></span><br></p></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><b>Personal data shall be:<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br> 2.    "collected for<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><u>specified, explicit and legitimate purposes<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></u>and not further processed in a manner that is incompatible with
 those purposes"</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>(the "purpose limitation") AND<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><b><br> 3.    "adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed"</b><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>(the "data minimisation" requirement).  [underline added]<b><br> </b></div><div> Thus, our first criteria of "consistent with ICANN's mission," is only the first step and we need to go further than even the 3 criteria we are discussing..<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Second, lawful and legal enter us into a debate over words and I have to agree with Sam and Tapani's analysis and let me add some of my own.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div> <br></div><div> "Legal" is the term we use for actions expressly allowed under law. How we process personal data under the GDRP falls into this category -- of processing expressly allowed under law. Whereas the term lawful is used for a much broader category of actions which
 are generally permissible and allowable.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> The term "legal" is much more consistent with our criteria statement because the processing of personal data by ICANN must clearly have a<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valid legal basis</i><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>as
 expressly defined by data protection laws.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div> <br></div><div> Best regards,<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div> Kathy<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div> <br></div><div> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:<br></div><p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:9pt">Thanks Tapani,</span></span><br></p></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"></p><div>I will extract from your longer message.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div> I deliberately kept my brief and less technical.<br></div><div> I think we are in agreement here and I support your position.<br></div><p></p><div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0)">On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:<br> <br> The key distinction, as I understand it, is that "lawful" would be<br>  defined by the negative, everything that some law does not prohibit,<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p></div></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0)">where as "legal basis" is defined by the positive, only things whose<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br> justification can be explicitly derived from law.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br> <br>   <......><br> <br> So I would prefer "legal basis" specifically in this sense: that any processing<br>  would have to be explicitly based on one of the criteria, or bases, as listed<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br> in GDPR Article 6, or similar explicit justification in other data protection legislation.<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><br> <br> </span></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<br></pre><pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></pre><pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><br></pre><pre><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_gnso-2Drds-2Dpdp-2Dwg&d=DwMDaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=fOG1O9n2_DhDKrVj0wrojDKlYIsDeLHzwtDlEi-f9Ng&s=GditP_BvWvjE7xFIYot7e5akySiL4RPKaCgA_X_fyTE&e="><span class="colour" style="color:purple">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</span></a><br></pre></blockquote><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><pre>_______________________________________________<br></pre><pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></pre><pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><br></pre><pre><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_gnso-2Drds-2Dpdp-2Dwg&d=DwMDaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=fOG1O9n2_DhDKrVj0wrojDKlYIsDeLHzwtDlEi-f9Ng&s=GditP_BvWvjE7xFIYot7e5akySiL4RPKaCgA_X_fyTE&e="><span class="colour" style="color:purple">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</span></a><br></pre></blockquote><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div style="text-align:center" align="center" class="MsoNormal"><hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"><br></div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt" class="MsoNormal"></p><div><br></div><div><b><i><br>Reminder: Any email that requests your login credentials or that asks you to click on a link could be a phishing attack.  If you have any questions regarding the authenticity of this email or its sender, please contact the IT Service Desk at<span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="tel:%28212%29%20484-6000"><span class="colour" style="color:purple">212.484.6000</span></a><span class="m692055522894869952apple-converted-space"> </span>or
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