[gnso-review-dt] MP3 recording GNSO Review Working Party teleconference Tuesday, 03 March 2015 20:00UTC
Terri Agnew
terri.agnew at icann.org
Tue Mar 3 23:51:57 UTC 2015
Dear All,
Please find the MP3 recording of the GNSO Review Working Party
teleconference held on GNSO Review Working Party teleconference Tuesday, 03
March 200UTC at
http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-review-03mar15-en.mp3
On page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO
Master Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/
Attendees:
Jennifer Wolfe
Ron Andruff
David Maher
Edward Morris
Jennifer Standiford
Klaus Stoll
Amr Elsadr
Robin Gross
Rafik Dammak
James Gannon
Philip Sheppard
Bill Drake
Stephanie Perrin
Mike Rodenbaugh
Rudi Vansnick
Tapani Tarvainen
Sam Lanfranco
Matthieu Camus
Walid Al-Saqaf
Ken Stubbs
<https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Laura+Covington+SOI>
Laura Covington
Guest speaker: Richard Westlake
Apologies:
Chuck Gomes
Osvaldo Novoa
ICANN Staff:
Mary Wong
Marika Konings
Larisa Gurnick
Charla Shambley
Lars Hoffman
Glen de St Gery
Terri Agnew
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Terri Agnew
Adobe Chat transcript:
Terri Agnew:Dear all, Welcome to the GNSO Review Working Party on the 03
March 2015
Philip:Hello
Jennifer Wolfe:Hello, Philip, and hello everyone, thanks for joining!
Amr Elsadr - Observer:Hi all. Just to note that the NCSG members listed as
members of the WP on the right-hand column of the screen is outdated.
Rudi Vansnick:sorry for being late
Terri Agnew:Welcome Rudi
Mary Wong:@Amr, thanks for the note
Amr Elsadr - Observer:@Mary: I'm not a member anymore. Stephanie and Bill
now are.
Mary Wong:Can we confirm which groups (if any) the observers on this call
are? We note several participants who are not current Working Party members
representing the GNSO SG/Cs.
James Gannon (Silent Observer):James Gannon NCUC/NCSG
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:Done. Sorry.
Mary Wong:Thanks!
Mary Wong:They have been sent to the list
Terri Agnew:Welcome Ron Andruff
Ron A:Apologies for my late arrival! Greetings all,
Terri Agnew:Welcome Tapani Tarvainen
Tapani Tarvainen:Thanks, and also aorry for being late. (NCUC/NCSG)
Marika Konings:For those that would like to update their information (to
include affiliation, or observer status), please note you can do so by going
to the drop down menu in the attendee pod and select 'edit my info'.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Unfortunately the faulty methodology used in
the study makes much of the study not very useful.
Terri Agnew:Welcome Sam Lanfranco
Klaus Stoll:I do not seem to have received the comments from NCUC
Terri Agnew:@Philip, your mic is not active
Mary Wong:@Klaus, that may be an issue of server response/speed, so
different WP members may receive messages at different times. It was sent to
the mailing list by Glen.
Klaus Stoll:Thanks Mary
Terri Agnew:Welcome Matthieu Camus
Matthieu Camus:Thank you... sorry to be late
Larisa Gurnick:Stephanie Perrin, Phillip Sheppard and NCUC comments have
been recieved in response to the working text so far.
Matthieu Camus:Matthieu Camus, Internet Society France
Larisa Gurnick:Please send your comments to gnso-review-dt at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-review-dt at icann.org>
Terri Agnew:Welcome Walid Al-Saqaf
Richard Westlake:I'm sorry I can't reallly hear SP
Richard Westlake:Bettee!
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:As an active participant for more than 11
years, I would have liked to have been interviewed by Westlake (I did fill
out the survey).
Marika Konings:@Stephanie - from my experience, we have actually come a
long way since 5-6 years ago where indeed many WGs had many of the same
people involved. We've seen quite a few new people step up, including
yourself, which I personally think is a really positive development.
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:I still need to get around to joining one. :)
Terri Agnew:Welcome Ken Stubbs
Marika Konings:@Amr - last time I checked you were on quite a few ;-)
Bill Drake:I should add I talked to people who started and gave up
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG::)
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:who decided who got interviewed?
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:where can we see the terms of reference?
Larisa Gurnick:Please see
https://community.icann.org/display/GR2/Community+Engagement+Meetings for a
listing of extensive outreach and engagement activities
Bill Drake:I and a number of other chairs were only interviewed after I
complained about it on the SOAC chairs list
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I'd really like to know who decided who was
interviewed? We need an answer to that question.
Mary Wong:@Robin, the wiki page has the RFP:
https://community.icann.org/x/aJLhAg
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):We tried o get a good respomse,
we failed, it is what it is, is not an acceptable response.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:where to begin with all the inaccuracies?
Larisa Gurnick:@Robin - the working party provided guidance to Westlake
throughout the process re: interview candidates
Stephanie Perrin:It is extremely difficult to stream through the document
quickly when juggling the scree, the chat, and our own comments.
Mary Wong:To follow up on Larisa's point, staff provided Westlake at their
request with lists of officers, past chairs, WG veterans etc.
Larisa Gurnick:@Stephanie - I emailed a copy of the working text several
minutes ago
Mary Wong:Staff did not select or screen the interviewees, just to be
clear.
Bill Drake:thanks Mary. But chairs turned out not to be worthy
Ron A:Sorry I dropped right after I finished my intervention. Dialing
back in...
Marika Konings:@Bill - I believe all chairs were invited early on, but not
everyone caught the email ;-)
Bill Drake:Marika, most chairs said they were not
Bill Drake:we had a discussion of it on the SOAC list
Klaus Stoll:How do we avoid that perceived inaccuracies are in themself
inaccurate
Bill Drake:actually I was told the staff discouraged interviews
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:How did Westlake decide who to approach for
interview?
Bill Drake:Klaus, checking facts works
Mary Wong:To clarify, by "chairs" the list included GNSO and WG chairs and
vice-chairs as well as SG/C/SO/AC.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Even if the invitations were
such that's snowballing methodology and just is not acceptable for drawing
larger inferences in a bounded community like the GNSO.
Klaus Stoll:Bill, how about some facts not just "I was told"
Bill Drake:I totally oppose the use of "I was told" in such a report
Bill Drake:particularly when highly selective
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:completely agree, Bill.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:The decision to negative stereotype NCUC is
not appropriate.
Marika Konings:@Mike - the Policy & Implementation WG is not reviewing the
PDP, but has recommended a number of processes that may complement the
existing PDP
Mike Rodenbaugh:thx Marika, still there should be some mention in this
doc?
Marika Konings:I believe there are references to that effort in the text
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:how were the interviews divided - equally
among all constituencies? I wasn't interviewed.
Marika Konings:for example page 30
Mike Rodenbaugh:thx. Marika. Re interviews. only one IPC member was
interviewed. Seems like at least 10 from NCUC were interviewed..
Mike Rodenbaugh:So we share Robin's question
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:sounds like questionable methodology, Mike,
for making any recommendations.
Bill Drake:I asked F2F in LA to be interviewed and was told no time
Bill Drake:only after complaining on the SOAC chair list did I eventually
get one
Bill Drake:but this is a side issue
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:the other issue is the choice to selectively
handle comments about NCUC.
Terri Agnew:Laura Covington has joined audio
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I'm (again) volunteering to be interviewed for
this process. As a participant for more than 11 years, I can add something
(ex-ncsg chair, ex-gnso-councilor, ex-ncuc chair).
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):I'll volunteer to give Westlake
questions on statistical sampling. Apparently Richard missedcthat class at
Oxford.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):classes
Larisa Gurnick:@Richard - please provide a list of people intervied.
This will be included in the report - I understand.
Mike Rodenbaugh:the list is already there in the Annexes
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:These questions could all be avoided if a
description of how informant selection could be included in the methodology
description.
Stephanie Perrin:THe list is there, who are they? What stakeholder
groups?
Mike Rodenbaugh:I agree that would be helpful
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Debra Hughes was interviewed? She hasn't been
in NCSG for several years. Where did her name come from to be interviewed?
Philip:Quotes reflect concerns and praise. They are the essence of good
consultancy
Marika Konings:@Stephanie - I believe that is information that still needs
completing (note the column 'role' which I presume will identify their
affiliation)
Larisa Gurnick:@Richard - can you please clarify what information you plan
to include in the "Role" column?
Stephanie Perrin:And when did they arrive at ICANN? This is important, if
you are looking at attracting newcomers, and you are not actually talking to
any
Marika Konings:@Robin - she was one of the founders of NPOC which is one
of the GNSO constituencies
Philip:Section 8i about constituencies. They only exist in the CSG and
NCSG
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:She left NCSG years ago. Where was the
suggestion from to interview her (staff?)
Marika Konings:@Robin - I believe there are other names that are no longer
actively involved, but may provided some historic perspectives that were of
interest to Westlake?
Mary Wong:And to clarify/repeat - staff did not tell Westlake who to
inteview and who not to.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:we should know WHO made the specific
suggestions.
rafik:@Marika better to explain the criteria that led to interviewes
selection. for example I see many board members inclucded, looking to
understand thw rationale
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:so Westlake selectively decided which comments
to publish, thanks for the clarification, Richard.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I also want to know if negative comments were
made about other SG/Constituencies or only about NCUC in Westlake's effort.
Marika Konings:@Rafik - that is a question for Richard/Westlake to answer,
but as I understand it, it was a combination of suggestions that may have
been received from staff, community members as well as aiming to get further
input from those that responded to the 360 assessment.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why are so many staff included as
interviewees? that is not appropriate. I'd like to see the results with
those comments deleted.
rafik:@Marika and that is why I am looking for westlake answer :)
Marika Konings:@Rafik - I only saw Ray as a board member on the list ?
Stephanie Perrin:Bill Graham is a recent board member
rafik:@marika including former too
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Why didn't Westlake just go look at NCUC's
webpage to see the diversity of its EC, etc? Why wasn't a pursuit for facts
used (only perceptions)?
Marika Konings:@Rafik - some of the former board members have served in
other roles too, so their perspectives may have been of interest in relation
to those other roles and not necessarily their former board position ;-)
Mary Wong:Again, to follow up on Marika's point, the Board members listed
as being interviewed are either past or present members of the SIC - so some
of them would have been part of the prior restructuring exericise.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:The facts are readily available on the web.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why not use facts.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:sounds like Westlake is relying on an entirely
"subjective" determination. Why not also include objective facts?
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Will Westlake please comment on
the statistical validity of a survey of 27 people commenting on a group of
404 people?
Ron A:As I understand it, any person in the community had the opportunity
to bring their views forward regarding any part of ICANN GNSO...
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):It seems on a blind read of the
situation that there is major concern over the qualitiative and subjective
bias of the review compred to a fact based quantative review..
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:It is a Fact that 27 different people have
been on NCUC's EC for the last 10 years. It is a verifiable fact that the
NCUC EC includes 1 rep from each geographic region. Not using these facts
seems questionable.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):I'll comment. The confidence
interval of such a sample is 18.23% making the data completely useless.
Philip:Comparing 27 to 404 in this context is completely useless.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Thanks Philip.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why did westlake decide to ONLY go the
subjective route?
Larisa Gurnick:@Robin - Westlake methodology includes multiple data
collection methods - quantitative and qualitative.
Sam Lanfranco [NCSG-NPOC]:@Morris Technically, the C.I . is 18.23% if
there is confidence in a sample being representative.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Larisa, Richard just told us they decided to
go the subjective route. Otherwise, what objective facts were relied upon?
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Sam. Good point. That number
is the best case scenerio for the survey!
Philip:A consultant's role is to report comments received. lets not
dismiss this please
Bill Drake:actually Philip I don't agree, the role is to do research
Philip:Well maybe both
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Philip. Comments received - I
agree. I'm having a problem with how they take faulty quant methodology, use
that to select "representative" comments...I guess I'm questioning the
'representative' aspect. That's something we really don'y know due to some
very poor esearch design and methodology.
Stephanie Perrin:There is certainly an obligation to rely on facts and
filter for bias. No evidence of how potential bias is filtered, in a
fractious multi-stakeholder community where it is required.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:good point, Stephanie. How was "bias"
accounted for by Westlake?
Charla Shambley:You can view the 360 Assessment here:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/360-assessment-21aug14-en.pdf
Stephanie Perrin:Thanks Charla, I have been through all that data. I can
bring it to my university library and demonstrate the bias, but frankly I do
not see that as my job.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:what criteria does westlake use for its
"professional selection" of what to provide?
Philip:Between bias and truth is perception.
Bill Drake:I understood the criteria to be what they think is relevant
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:and what do they think is relevant?
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):@robin those criteria will be
extremely important for everyone to understand any subjective professional
selection reccomendations by westlake
Ron A:Do I understand this right: Westlake is expecting comments on this
draft - or a new one coming out?
Robin Gross:On what evidence did Westlake base its recommendation that
additional constituencies will increase participation?
Bill Drake:faith based
Stephanie Perrin:Totally agree with Mike
Robin Gross:who is driving this bus any way?
Bill Drake:totally agree Mike
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):+1 Mike
Ron A:Agree - 20-30 days for community review and response.
Robin Gross:The community should be making this determination. Not staff.
Philip:Agree it is more important t get this right than to get this done.
Robin Gross:Who is in charge? The community? Staff? Westlake?
Philip:Us surely
Bill Drake:surely
Robin Gross:Then we set the dates.
Robin Gross:And we decide when our report is ready for prime tme.
James Gannon (Observer NCUC/NCSG):Surely the WG need to be given time to
review before the public comment period of the full and complete report
Philip:Agree
Bill Drake:I'd like to comment on a complete draft before it goes out the
door for public comment
Robin Gross:Frankly, we are going to need another entirely new report
given the issues with this one.
Bill Drake:"Quality trumps timelines" is a good mantra
Robin Gross:And not exactly "bottom up"
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Agreed Robin. The survey is
methodologically troubled it can not be fixed.
Bill Drake:Yes Stephanie it would be good if it were understood why people
volunteer their time
Philip:Agree completely with SP
Bill Drake:20 hours per week of pro bono to get abused is not really a
good deal
Robin Gross:Westlake works for us. We need to remember that.
Ron A:@ Bill: you are referring to us, right?! ;o)
Philip:In all ICANN hisory, this report on ICANN's policy development body
is the most important.
Bill Drake:Ron you got skin in the game!
Laura Covington:agree with Stephanie and Mike R
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Bill. Only 20?
Robin Gross:Right, Phillip, this is enormously important. Why on earth
rush it when the community is uncomfortable with methodology?
Bill Drake:Civil society people are crazy to try to work here. We are
treated better in the UN.
Bill Drake:I mean that
Robin Gross:Let's fix this and get it right.
Bill Drake:Human Rights Council meeting now in Geneva. CS people really
having productive engagement, and not being crapped on for their efforts.
Stephanie Perrin:yes
Philip:Bye all. A very productive meeting. New call with new drfat please.
Robin Gross:The community has spoken on this, with a rare one voice.
Terri Agnew:@Klaus, I see your mic is muted
Robin Gross:I hope these errors can be fixed in the next draft.
Stephanie Perrin:Thanks for chairing a difficult meeting!!
Ron A:Thanks all!
Bill Drake:thank you Jen, good chairing :-)
James Gannon (Observer NCUC/NCSG):Thanks all.
Rudi Vansnick:thanks
Robin Gross:Thanks, all. Bye!
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:Thanks all. Bye.
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