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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Dear All,</div>
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<p style="background-color: white;"><font size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Please find the MP3 recording of the
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">GNSO Review Working Party
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">teleconference held on Wednesday, 16 September 2015 at 14:00 UTC: </span></font><font face="Calibri" style="font-size: 14px;"><a href="http://mailer.samanage.com/wf/click?upn=NrFWbrBstcrPWP369qgbqlXiSKeL20xnUXzI03ZqpsvX-2FjWcml3uVD44bGMje4TTanBpwN7aciQ0kuQnhlO9dg-3D-3D_QuA5zZR9ZZ7J1F2FeF-2FOsgm1hgIDcBrAX2P7Ezxmql7ckJc4ios1-2BxObAoz2rzLSI3c4QB1NGo7bw7XrBjpRCbz74w4vzk48UxZMFoBBQBQaQ0ePdiOjdJ30sQNHkokOf-2F2p-2FBvMgKvMhzp-2B4u8fP-2BRrSytHe2KCf2HpQmtSbpezMgNTUG57PiORAPesOotpHA-2BC4pSmXJRsVmpbNaLqzpJ0hHWSwmLAQWyUKNjD8rHUI4jQ8V1XO4-2FOzyUaS26MZLJbswUFT3DzlAsEUwlYuQPdrnEqC-2BinVM1YrUCIZ8wOqW55j9QTlSk22LyONtR4BMRioyetdKHlvupidljmSG8leKw-2BmukQWk-2FbBig5OlAyDCbaEEDb2bwLt53wM7Q7-2B-2BmbBl8tuKB-2BOrUlweZnSxVxLXND9odpl0apPByalMnXjNVK-2F16PPllRYBumP2dXYzPEp6-2BoI-2BvQeDaL-2F-2B4u4qnRXRFHuINYrPgWFvBcVEkkRv8tnXetzkYIuCOs-2Bryo" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 19px;">http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-review-16sep15-en.mp3</a><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 19px;"> </span></font></p>
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<span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">On page: </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar"></a><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep ">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#s</a><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep ">ep</a><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep "> </a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="color:blue"> </span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/">http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="color:blue"> </span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<span class="apple-style-span"><u><span style="color:black">Attendees:</span></u></span><u><o:p></o:p></u></p>
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<span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">Jennifer Wolfe</span></span></p>
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<span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">Klaus Stoll</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Chuck Gomes<o:p></o:p></p>
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Avri Doria</p>
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Bill Drake<o:p></o:p></p>
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Rafik Dammak</p>
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<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Arun Sukumar</div>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Robin Gross</div>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Edward Morris</div>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Osvaldo Novoa</div>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Stefania Milan</div>
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<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Observer: Amr Elsadr</div>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-size: 14px;"><u>Apologies:<span style="color:#1F497D">
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none
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><u><font size="3">Guest Speakers:<o:p></o:p></font></u></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><font size="3">Richard Westlake<o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><font size="3">Colin Jackson<o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><o:p><font size="3"> </font></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><u><font size="3"><span style="color:black">ICANN Staff:</span><o:p></o:p></font></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black"><font size="3">Mary Wong<o:p></o:p></font></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black"><font size="3">Marika Konings</font></span></span></p>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Lars Hoffman</div>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">Larisa Gurnick<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black">Charla Shambley</span></span></p>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Karen Mulberry</div>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Nathalie Peregrine<o:p></o:p></font></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black"><font face="Calibri" size="3">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** <o:p></o:p></font></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color:black"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Thank you.<br>
Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></font></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span class="apple-style-span"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">Nathalie<o:p></o:p></font></font></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-size: 14px;"><span class="apple-style-span"><font face="Calibri"><b><u><span style="color:black">Adobe Chat transcript:</span></u></b><u><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></u></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Calibri"> <span style="font-size: medium;">Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, Welcome to the GNSO Review Working Party on the 16 September 2015</span></font></p>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Hi..., I am no longer a member of the working party. I hope it's alright that I am participating in today's call.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Jen Wolfe:Yes, of course you are welcome to join!</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Thanks Jen.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Sorry I am late. Connectivity problems.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Stefania Milan has joined he call</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Should we hold our questions until later?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:I have a question re. Rec. 23</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Jen Wolfe:Let's hold questions until Richard finishes his presentation and then we can start the questions.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:Would RySG Interenst Groups be counted as Cs?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:Or is 23 only aimed solely at the NCSG?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Larisa Gurnick:The document Richard is referencing will be available for display and will be posted on the wiki shortly.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:much of this content comes out of the blue</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:not exactly a bottom-up process at work here.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:We never heard of it</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:a parting 'surprise'</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:[QUESTION] Apart from rec #23, why wasn't the WP involved in reviewing any of the public comments? Wouldn't have been helpful for Westlake to have representatives of the community being involved in the public comment
review, similar to GNSO working groups?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:So Westlake is suggesting we unwind the last SG reforms.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:inter alia</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:It seems so Avri.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:They CSG refused to accept the last reform. I guess they picked correctly?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:NCSg must learn from the CSG.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Larisa Gurnick:A GNSO Review Working Party meeting originally scheduled for July and then rescheduled for early August was cancelled due to low participation.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:apparently we must adopt the CSG model</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:or we musr follw their example and refuse</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:and stop pretending there is something called civil society in ICANN</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:@Avri: Is it an option for the NCSG to not accept the review? Last time, the review was initiated by the GNSO. Not so this time, correct?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:This is shockingly wrong.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:hey the CSG refused last time. And it worked for them.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Westlake seems to fundamentally misunderstand the GNSO model. That's a big problem.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:and history</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:reality</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:CS</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:hey if i was a subtype or Registry, i would demand a constituency now.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Arun Sukumar:Hi, it's concerning that terms like "cultural diversity" have been so loosely applied to justify Rec #23 - and this is from someone who cannot agree more on the importance of regiona/geo diversity</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Osvaldo Novoa has joined the call</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Completely agree with Chuck, and this could have not been "missed" if the WP members were involved in the public comments review.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:that is a fundamentally flawed argument</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:The breakdown in the non-contracted parties house is EQUAL seats to the commercial and non-commercial stakeholders. It is NOT about constituencies. Westlake has failed to understand this key point.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:people don't join a constituency because it has Council seats</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:so many thing that might infringe the politeness rule are on the tip of my fingers.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:Bill, some do. for that and for travel support.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:well maybe. not us</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:@Chuck: +1</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Agree with Chuck.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:what is the point in engaging with actual stakeholders, if Westlake is unwilling to learn about its mistakes? What are we here for?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:total misconstruction</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:In the NCSG, getting seats requires running for elections, and the 'other C' did not put up any candidates. that is one way to not end up with seats.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Klaus Stoll has joined the call</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Klaus Stoll:Sorry to be so late. technical problems.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:How would Council seats be allocated equally by constituency?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:everytime a new constituency is formed you subdivide the votes n-ways. </div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Sure.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Thanks, Bill, for expressing many of our frustrations with this sandbagging.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:it this is accepted, i will go into the business of helping people start constituencies. the more the merrier.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:@ Richard: What is equal footing?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 1: "board agreed, based upon evidence from the NCSG". The Board conducted an independent evaluation of the Cyber Cafe application. Please cite your fact the advice was
based upon NCSG advice.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:we need 7 constituencies</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:NCSG operates as a stakeholder group. That is different than CSG, which is the constituency model. Westlake needs to understand this key issue.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:let's break up NCUC into 15 constituencies and demand Council seats for each</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:and the last review mandated stakeholder groups. we complied.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 2: "a former Chair and current NCSG Executiv Committee member". This refers to Milton Mueller, who is an EX OFFICIO participant of the NCUC EC. He is not a voting member
of the EC.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:The logic of Westlake's argument would lead to breaking NCUC into 15 constituencies to demand seats, indeed. It is so NOT THOUGHT THROUGH....</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:2.5 people per seat?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:Even the SIC understood the problem in 2011, that's why they didn't do it</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:it is a pity, becasue it colors some of the good recommendations.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:Reality doesn't matter Amr</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 3: "in practice, the NCUC's view has largely won out". THere is no NCUC view on constituency vs. stakeholder group powers.. There is a diversity of views within the NCUC.
I , for example, are far more Constituency friendly than the unelected ex-officio cited in the study.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:and in the NCSG election none of the other constituency even pput up candidates. how do they expect to get elected.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:@ Jenn: We as a working team may want to develop a statement to the SIC regarding Rec. 23.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:This is an example of how ICANN staff uses independent contractors to do its dirty work (and bypas a bottom-up process).</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Jen Wolfe:Agree, that's what we can discuss after we finish up on this point. </div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:and we should carefully review aall the other recommendations for other fault lines.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:@Chuck I believe a team statement would be in order</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 4: "Only one NPOC member has ever held a position on the GNSO Council". Not true. Carlos Guttierez (2015-2016) and Klaus Stoll (2013-2014) are both GNSO Councilors that
are NPOC members.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:Facts smacts</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Constituency members vote along with everybody else. Saying that constituencies don't have a voice is not accurate.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:I think we should be cautious about blaming staff for this outcome. If that indeed happened that would be bad but we don't know that that happened.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:presumably since Council seats drives membership growth then there should have been growth spurts in the period of those two Councilors</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:Carlos is a NCA, though member of NPOC, he was not elected by NCSG.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:Klaus was the only NPOC who ran and got a seat. i think he was the one one who ran.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Klaus ran, but was ultimately appointed by the NCSG PC.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:... the only one to run ..</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):True Avri but Westlake states that only one NPOC member has ever served on Council. THat simply is incorrect.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Question: How much are these recommendations costing ICANN (Internet users)?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Other NPOC members who served on the council include Carlos, Debbie and Amber.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Rec. 23 is the only rec. I had a significant concern with.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:true. just trying to be precise with the facts. Something I think is useful in this sort of review.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):@Robin. I asked for ICANN to release the contract. THey released small portions but would not divulge anything in terms of cost.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Debbie and Amber were (if I am not mistaken) appointed by the board.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Carlos appointed by the NomCom.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:there is no traffic on their mail list, perhaps because there are no members to send it</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Any statement that the Working Party develops should be submitted to the OEC before 28 Sep.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Fully agree with Rafik.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:do I really have to learn to say OEC instead of SIC?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:@Chuck: Would a statement by the WP be a sort of review and comment on the Westlake report? Can the WP pull this off on such short notice?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:@ Bill: I had to think twice before figuring out what OEC was.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:the committee formerly know as SIC</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:"the committee formerly know as SIC". I like that. :)</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:Organizational Effectiveness on parade here</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:this is just wrong</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:tis was less a GNSO review that a NCSG review</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Arun Sukumar:Well said, Rafik. I'm a new entrant to NCSG, and geographical diversity in ICANN is a big concern, but the sheer number of participants in the NCSG elections from all parts of the world was overwhelming.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:please look at the website and see who are members are</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):NCUC has 1) more and 2) larger members than NPOC.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):From the Heritage Foundation to the ACLU to EFF...</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:it is too late. they are done. time for us to figure out how to repsond.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:some are small, some are large, we explained this in our last 10 page corrective letter</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Many NPOC organizations exist ONLY on paper.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:utter nonsense</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Arun Sukumar:@richard: this is a hypothesis right? there is a weighted voting system</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Klaus Stoll 2:Please let me know which! I resent rumors without facts.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Westlake just doesn't understand how things work. This is a competency problem.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):NCUC member the American Civil Liberties Union has 565,000 members. One NCUC member.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Will do Klaus.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:they don't count Ed</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Klaus Stoll 2:Thanks!</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:EFF doesn't count</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:CDT doesnt count</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:and so on</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:APC is pretty big. Library of Alexandria is pretty big. RedCross is in NCUC too. What does it take for Westlake to have a revised view?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Heritage?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:Westlake has no criteria. This is purely subjective nonsense.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:I think we need a Working Party call as soon as possible to work on a plan to develop a response to the Recs.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:In my opinion, it would be sufficient to focus on Rec. 23.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:btw, another NCUC memebr APC, the organization I am representing is composed of 46 other grassroot organizations.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:+1 Chuck just what we all need right now</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:Avri for that to matter one would have to know something about the groups being characterized</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:time no, commitment yes</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Well said Bill. :)</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Rafik:yes</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:thank you Jen for managing this well</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:What is the cost of these recommendations? Or is that a secret?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:it is a secret Robin</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:@Bill: +1. Thanks Jen, and appreciate being allowed to participate and speak today.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:It is unfortunate that all the good work that Westlake did is being overshadowed by one rec.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:I don't have audio, but I'd like my question answered.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:good value for registrant money</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Arun Sukumar:thanks all for this illuminating call</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Larisa Gurnick:The cost is a contractual matter.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake::-)</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:does that mean it is a secret, Larisa?</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Rafik:what is the cost of volunteers time</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Bill Drake:going to encourage my undergrads to bid on ICANN contracts</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Chuck Gomes:Thanks all.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Bye.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Larisa Gurnick:Thank you all</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Rafik:bye</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Robin Gross:no answer to my question on what we are paying for these recommendations.</div>
<div style="font-size: medium;"> Avri Doria:thanks. bye. glad thsi part is over.</div>
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