[gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today

Tue Apr 11 15:49:37 UTC 2017

+1 -- I think we could use some direction from the co-chairs whether this discussion furthers our chartered tasks and where it should fall in the work plan.  It does, however, sound like ground that has been well-covered.

Michael R. 

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Nahitchevansky, Georges
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:37 AM
To: Beckham, Brian <brian.beckham at wipo.int>; George Kirikos <icann at leap.com>; Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.co>
Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today

+1

Georges Nahitchevansky
Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP
The Grace Building | 1114 Avenue of the Americas | New York, NY  10036-7703 office 212 775 8720 | fax 212 775 8820 ghn at kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.com

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Beckham, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:14 AM
To: George Kirikos; Jon Nevett
Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today

George,

If your point is that some actors game a system I think that ground is well worn by now.

You suggested in another email that we ought to do away with sunrises.

Given the many views expressed on this list rejecting that idea (noting also the possibility to challenge the trademark registration, or its recordal in the TMCH (www.trademark-clearinghouse.com/dispute)), it is not clear what else can constructively be added to the discussion at this point.

Perhaps in advance of our call tomorrow, our co-chairs wish to weigh in?

Regards,

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:30 PM
To: Jon Nevett
Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today

Actually, here's an even better example, Flowers.baby:

https://whois.domaintools.com/flowers.baby

Creation Date: 2016-11-30T14:31:05Z

According to the schedule at:

https://www.safenames.net/nTLD/NewGtldsByGenericGroup/baby.aspx

The Sunrise was from October 3, 2016 to December 2, 2016, so that clearly falls in the appropriate time frame. Land rush wasn't until December 5, 2016.

General availability starts tomorrow (April 12, 2017). Operated by Neustar (non-Donuts).

Also, Flowers.news is registered to you 1-800-Flowers.com:

https://whois.domaintools.com/flowers.news

with a creation date 2015-07-06T08:21:46Z that happens to be the same as that of Google.news:

https://whois.domaintools.com/google.news  (2015-07-06T08:21:49Z)

give or take a few seconds. (.news does share the same backend as Donuts, I believe, but is run by Rightside). I won't waste my DomainTools.com credits to check the WHOIS history, though. I think the point's been made.

Sincerely,

George Kirikos
416-588-0269
http://www.leap.com/

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:59 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
> Since Donuts is calling into question the Flowers.delivery example 
> (and there are other TLDs operated by Donuts where Flowers.TLD is 
> registered by 1-800-Flowers.com), let's pick a registry not operated 
> by Donuts, namely .miami (operated by Minds+Machines).
>
> Timeline of Launch:
>
> https://comlaude.com/news/new-gtld-updates-miami-launch-schedule
>
> Sunrise Period Closed: 18-Sep-15 (16:00 UTC) Sunrise Type: End Date 
> Sunrise (not first-come, first served) **(implies all domains got 
> created after sunrise, but before launch of General Availability) 
> General Availability: 02-Oct-15 (16:00 UTC)
>
> Please note that there will be no Landrush phase for this TLD.
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/flowers.miami
>
> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:01Z
>
> (registrant: 1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.)
>
> NB: Notice that the date above is *before* General Availability, 
> implying it was registered in Sunrise.
>
> Oldest WHOIS history at DomainTools is a few days later:
>
> https://research.domaintools.com/research/whois-history/search/?q=flow
> ers.miami&date=2015-10-02&origin=permalink
>
> Domain ID: 1095074-MMd1
> Domain Name: flowers.miami
> WHOIS Server: whois-dub.mm-registry.com Updated Date:
> 2015-10-01T14:07:07Z Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:01Z Registry 
> Expiry Date: 2016-09-28T17:38:01Z Sponsoring Registrar: CSC 
> Corporation Service Company Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 299 Domain
> Status: clientTransferProhibited
> https://icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
>
> Registrant ID: 34106-Minds
> Registrant Name: Domain Administrator
> Registrant Organization: 1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.
> Registrant Street: One Old Country Road, Suite 500 Registrant City:
> Carle Place Registrant State/Province: NY Registrant Postal Code:
> 11514 Registrant Country: US Registrant Phone: +1.5162376000 
> Registrant Phone Ext:
> Registrant Fax: +1.5162376101
> Registrant Fax Ext:
> Registrant Email: domainadmin at 1800flowers.com
>
> If we compare the creation date of flowers.miami, it's the same (give 
> or take a few seconds) as Google.miami:
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/google.miami
>
> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:25Z
>
> or Yahoo.miami:
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/yahoo.miami
>
> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:28Z
>
> or Adsense.miami:
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/adsense.miami
>
> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:37:57Z
>
> All of which were presumably registered via Sunrise.
>
> I'm not going to go through all 1000+ TLDs to check Flowers.TLD (I'd 
> quickly use up all my DomainTools limits! Plus, I have a life.)
>
> But, 1-800-Flowers.com also owns Flowers.Yokohama
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/flowers.yokohama
>
> and that's not operated by Donuts or by Minds+Machines (it's by GMO 
> Registry). Its creation date is  2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
>
> whereas the landrush was a day later:
>
> https://ie.godaddy.com/help/about-yokohama-domain-names-11994
>
> "From August 6, 2014 at 3:00 UTC to September 5, 2014 at 14:59 UTC, 
> customers can purchase .yokohama domain names at a premium price."
>
> Flowers.yokohama has the same creation date/time (to the exact second) as:
>
> Google.Yokohama:
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/google.yokohama
>
> Creation Date: 2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
>
> or Yahoo.Yokohama
>
> https://whois.domaintools.com/yahoo.yokohama
>
> Creation Date: 2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
>
> and these would clearly be sunrise registrations.
>
> Is there a (Tunisian) trademark of 1-800-Flowers.com for "FLOWERS" in 
> the TMCH? If so, is it sunrise eligible? If so, are they using it to 
> get Flowers.TLD before anyone else can, in sunrise periods?
>
> If ICANN wants to subsidize higher limits for a DomainTools account, 
> and give me a per diem, I can find more examples, if the above isn't 
> compelling enough evidence.
>
> Or, we can open up the TMCH and see what's hiding there.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> George Kirikos
> 416-588-0269
> http://www.leap.com/
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:27 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
>> So, if Flowers.delivery *wasn't* a Sunrise registration, then if we 
>> examined the TMCH we wouldn't find any recordals (past or present) 
>> for "FLOWERS" by 1-800-Flowers.com that were sunrise eligible??
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> George Kirikos
>> 416-588-0269
>> http://www.leap.com/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:24 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
>>> How was it created before EAP began, then? Yahoo.delivery and 
>>> USPS.delivery weren't sunrise either?? (same creation dates/times, 
>>> give or take a few seconds)
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> George Kirikos
>>> 416-588-0269
>>> http://www.leap.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.co> wrote:
>>>> George:
>>>>
>>>> All I'm saying is that flowers.delivery wasn't a sunrise registration.  I'm not commenting on your other points.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 9:06 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.co> wrote:
>>>>>> That one is not a smoking gun.  It is a legitimate registration by a legitimate entity.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if my company 
>>>>> went out and registered a TM in some obscure jurisdiction like 
>>>>> Tunisia, for the brand MATH, in the goods and services of "math 
>>>>> education", used that mark in the TMCH to register MATH.TLD 
>>>>> domains ahead of every other competitor in the math industry 
>>>>> during sunrise, and then redirected the resulting domains to 
>>>>> Math.com, that would be a "legitimate registration by a legitimate entity"?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think most people would say "George, you gamed the system." and rightly so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> George Kirikos
>>>>> 416-588-0269
>>>>> http://www.leap.com/
>>>>
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