[gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today

J. Scott Evans jsevans at adobe.com
Tue Apr 11 16:43:31 UTC 2017


George:

We have all followed this string. We understand that you and a few others believe there need to be wholesale changes to the Sunrise mechanism and the TMCH database (or at least the confidentiality of that data).

1.  Do you have a suggestion for how to improve the Sunrise mechanism?
2. I see very little support for violating the confidentiality provisions of the TMCH contract.

I agree with Nick Wood. We need to move on and talk about real solutions. 

J. Scott


J. Scott Evans
408.536.5336 (tel)
345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
Director, Associate General Counsel
408.709.6162 (cell)
San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
Adobe. Make It an Experience.
jsevans at adobe.com
www.adobe.com
 
 
 

On 4/11/17, 8:27 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of George Kirikos" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of icann at leap.com> wrote:

    Brian:
    
    Georges Nahitchevansky had asserted:
    
    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmm.icann.org%2Fpipermail%2Fgnso-rpm-wg%2F2017-April%2F001366.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=0ZXPychHNKse%2FAkAQ3Zip3K7dcZOXwQWepBomoaLdEA%3D&reserved=0
    
    "whole basis of the alleged abuse is ancedotal evidence of a couple of
    speculators"
    
    "To put it bluntly, there hea been no evidence presented that bona
    fide brand owners are abusing the TMCH system in order to horde common
    terms or stiffle free speech."
    
    I'm presenting more evidence, that it's not just a "couple of
    speculators". It's our duty as a working group that is reviewing to
    gather and collect the data. What are you afraid that the data is
    going to reveal?
    
    Perhaps you don't consider "FLOWERS" to be a common term, or that
    1-800-Flowers.com is not some mainstream brand.
    
    Others in prior emails challenged us to look at the common dictionary
    terms, and look for evidence. This is another example.
    
    I think it's fair game to change people's minds through argument and
    evidence. We're supposed to do a review, not pretend to do one and say
    that we did.
    
    Some people's minds are so closed, that no amount of evidence can
    change their position. I'm more optimistic than that. As more and more
    evidence emerges, the calculation of the costs vs. benefits change.
    Perhaps some obstructionists who want to cling to the status quo would
    prefer that situation, rather than see what happens when the costs vs.
    benefits calculation reaches a tipping point that says "costs of the
    sunrise period outweigh the benefits".
    
    Sincerely,
    
    George Kirikos
    416-588-0269
    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=F5WcKg%2FMqCppjpbHEH0GXR7sSQuEwqMk2n3Izkp%2B41I%3D&reserved=0
    
    
    
    
    
    
    On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Beckham, Brian <brian.beckham at wipo.int> wrote:
    > George,
    >
    > If your point is that some actors game a system I think that ground is well worn by now.
    >
    > You suggested in another email that we ought to do away with sunrises.
    >
    > Given the many views expressed on this list rejecting that idea (noting also the possibility to challenge the trademark registration, or its recordal in the TMCH (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.trademark-clearinghouse.com%2Fdispute&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=IXdumAqcWyCbVQMkbAMUl8WSVLWtegZI1kIDw%2BFece4%3D&reserved=0)), it is not clear what else can constructively be added to the discussion at this point.
    >
    > Perhaps in advance of our call tomorrow, our co-chairs wish to weigh in?
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Brian
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos
    > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:30 PM
    > To: Jon Nevett
    > Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
    > Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items, Slides and Notes from the Working Group call held earlier today
    >
    > Actually, here's an even better example, Flowers.baby:
    >
    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fflowers.baby&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=iUEreBcJeHtFubPxIwAdSoNTQMLHk2we0q8UETgGU0k%3D&reserved=0
    >
    > Creation Date: 2016-11-30T14:31:05Z
    >
    > According to the schedule at:
    >
    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.safenames.net%2FnTLD%2FNewGtldsByGenericGroup%2Fbaby.aspx&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=nY2ruGGkRsFYH5MHCMcNAGpyqfSxM%2FR5itKnNXW9amk%3D&reserved=0
    >
    > The Sunrise was from October 3, 2016 to December 2, 2016, so that clearly falls in the appropriate time frame. Land rush wasn't until December 5, 2016.
    >
    > General availability starts tomorrow (April 12, 2017). Operated by Neustar (non-Donuts).
    >
    > Also, Flowers.news is registered to you 1-800-Flowers.com:
    >
    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fflowers.news&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=8Oc5rGc4XJSsMeLWSX9Faty1xTK4z6b%2BH15xhvsIxrA%3D&reserved=0
    >
    > with a creation date 2015-07-06T08:21:46Z that happens to be the same as that of Google.news:
    >
    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fgoogle.news&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=22C8VpXA5qPJoZ5KWxx8pnE2fBbxXP3h5gTMWJU%2B29o%3D&reserved=0  (2015-07-06T08:21:49Z)
    >
    > give or take a few seconds. (.news does share the same backend as Donuts, I believe, but is run by Rightside). I won't waste my DomainTools.com credits to check the WHOIS history, though. I think the point's been made.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    > George Kirikos
    > 416-588-0269
    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=F5WcKg%2FMqCppjpbHEH0GXR7sSQuEwqMk2n3Izkp%2B41I%3D&reserved=0
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:59 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
    >> Since Donuts is calling into question the Flowers.delivery example
    >> (and there are other TLDs operated by Donuts where Flowers.TLD is
    >> registered by 1-800-Flowers.com), let's pick a registry not operated
    >> by Donuts, namely .miami (operated by Minds+Machines).
    >>
    >> Timeline of Launch:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcomlaude.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-gtld-updates-miami-launch-schedule&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=rsJArAUuL5s%2FyMq3TK8pH29JbMINktKMwefrH6E1vio%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Sunrise Period Closed: 18-Sep-15 (16:00 UTC) Sunrise Type: End Date
    >> Sunrise (not first-come, first served) **(implies all domains got
    >> created after sunrise, but before launch of General Availability)
    >> General Availability: 02-Oct-15 (16:00 UTC)
    >>
    >> Please note that there will be no Landrush phase for this TLD.
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fflowers.miami&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=BI3dIb1JjfXEfGgInGVynWARHY64KdZStpc4O1azNcY%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:01Z
    >>
    >> (registrant: 1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.)
    >>
    >> NB: Notice that the date above is *before* General Availability,
    >> implying it was registered in Sunrise.
    >>
    >> Oldest WHOIS history at DomainTools is a few days later:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearch.domaintools.com%2Fresearch%2Fwhois-history%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3Dflow&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=IH8wRp4jFNd7FqZDeYNUQGabIzpCJHZUj%2FB%2BcuvaRag%3D&reserved=0
    >> ers.miami&date=2015-10-02&origin=permalink
    >>
    >> Domain ID: 1095074-MMd1
    >> Domain Name: flowers.miami
    >> WHOIS Server: whois-dub.mm-registry.com Updated Date:
    >> 2015-10-01T14:07:07Z Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:01Z Registry
    >> Expiry Date: 2016-09-28T17:38:01Z Sponsoring Registrar: CSC
    >> Corporation Service Company Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 299 Domain
    >> Status: clientTransferProhibited
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ficann.org%2Fepp%23clientTransferProhibited&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=dYsl2WL2KZQ6RfPhK7SEsvO3y0%2FGhUuLgJHQh8BmNKw%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Registrant ID: 34106-Minds
    >> Registrant Name: Domain Administrator
    >> Registrant Organization: 1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.
    >> Registrant Street: One Old Country Road, Suite 500 Registrant City:
    >> Carle Place Registrant State/Province: NY Registrant Postal Code:
    >> 11514 Registrant Country: US Registrant Phone: +1.5162376000
    >> Registrant Phone Ext:
    >> Registrant Fax: +1.5162376101
    >> Registrant Fax Ext:
    >> Registrant Email: domainadmin at 1800flowers.com
    >>
    >> If we compare the creation date of flowers.miami, it's the same (give
    >> or take a few seconds) as Google.miami:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fgoogle.miami&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=lsUgqSDvYKZQjtefjO8u%2FB1ovW6vUTgnEJjsEjK1XGM%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:25Z
    >>
    >> or Yahoo.miami:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fyahoo.miami&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=vajUjCJLGSvWn%2B8HyVj7aFN26zSdienaOVCvqB2MSew%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:38:28Z
    >>
    >> or Adsense.miami:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fadsense.miami&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=DHjQj%2BNLnwbIqhbF4E4O5%2FGnmt%2BlZTel2lHGvSAJ79U%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2015-09-28T17:37:57Z
    >>
    >> All of which were presumably registered via Sunrise.
    >>
    >> I'm not going to go through all 1000+ TLDs to check Flowers.TLD (I'd
    >> quickly use up all my DomainTools limits! Plus, I have a life.)
    >>
    >> But, 1-800-Flowers.com also owns Flowers.Yokohama
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fflowers.yokohama&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528531100&sdata=pNwTpiQAEeDqOWJPltOE1G5M%2B%2BOk2D0YYZefsBnNyyg%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> and that's not operated by Donuts or by Minds+Machines (it's by GMO
    >> Registry). Its creation date is  2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
    >>
    >> whereas the landrush was a day later:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fie.godaddy.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-yokohama-domain-names-11994&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=ZC7xxFoJ7hZlz2E1m2L14bKb8KMcHhrvabWFTmIXC5I%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> "From August 6, 2014 at 3:00 UTC to September 5, 2014 at 14:59 UTC,
    >> customers can purchase .yokohama domain names at a premium price."
    >>
    >> Flowers.yokohama has the same creation date/time (to the exact second) as:
    >>
    >> Google.Yokohama:
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fgoogle.yokohama&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=7x9oMKt97bge2d4SSe9v6wrpXPoBKn9cef5F%2BNgZfAw%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
    >>
    >> or Yahoo.Yokohama
    >>
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhois.domaintools.com%2Fyahoo.yokohama&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=rhWet4vVqaAE5sMKHVcpFzpsJa15Ww9oVJB%2FRvIMvNQ%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >> Creation Date: 2014-08-05T06:40:00.0Z
    >>
    >> and these would clearly be sunrise registrations.
    >>
    >> Is there a (Tunisian) trademark of 1-800-Flowers.com for "FLOWERS" in
    >> the TMCH? If so, is it sunrise eligible? If so, are they using it to
    >> get Flowers.TLD before anyone else can, in sunrise periods?
    >>
    >> If ICANN wants to subsidize higher limits for a DomainTools account,
    >> and give me a per diem, I can find more examples, if the above isn't
    >> compelling enough evidence.
    >>
    >> Or, we can open up the TMCH and see what's hiding there.
    >>
    >> Sincerely,
    >>
    >> George Kirikos
    >> 416-588-0269
    >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=KNLNKWSnYkh9fGbQMZMtjSJq9Ms8%2FFO8EnGLGS6U2sI%3D&reserved=0
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:27 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
    >>> So, if Flowers.delivery *wasn't* a Sunrise registration, then if we
    >>> examined the TMCH we wouldn't find any recordals (past or present)
    >>> for "FLOWERS" by 1-800-Flowers.com that were sunrise eligible??
    >>>
    >>> Sincerely,
    >>>
    >>> George Kirikos
    >>> 416-588-0269
    >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=KNLNKWSnYkh9fGbQMZMtjSJq9Ms8%2FFO8EnGLGS6U2sI%3D&reserved=0
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:24 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
    >>>> How was it created before EAP began, then? Yahoo.delivery and
    >>>> USPS.delivery weren't sunrise either?? (same creation dates/times,
    >>>> give or take a few seconds)
    >>>>
    >>>> Sincerely,
    >>>>
    >>>> George Kirikos
    >>>> 416-588-0269
    >>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=KNLNKWSnYkh9fGbQMZMtjSJq9Ms8%2FFO8EnGLGS6U2sI%3D&reserved=0
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.co> wrote:
    >>>>> George:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> All I'm saying is that flowers.delivery wasn't a sunrise registration.  I'm not commenting on your other points.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Jon
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 9:06 AM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.co> wrote:
    >>>>>>> That one is not a smoking gun.  It is a legitimate registration by a legitimate entity.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if my company
    >>>>>> went out and registered a TM in some obscure jurisdiction like
    >>>>>> Tunisia, for the brand MATH, in the goods and services of "math
    >>>>>> education", used that mark in the TMCH to register MATH.TLD
    >>>>>> domains ahead of every other competitor in the math industry
    >>>>>> during sunrise, and then redirected the resulting domains to
    >>>>>> Math.com, that would be a "legitimate registration by a legitimate entity"?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I think most people would say "George, you gamed the system." and rightly so.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Sincerely,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> George Kirikos
    >>>>>> 416-588-0269
    >>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leap.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4d4be1e3735f4bda95d608d480ef4531%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636275212528541117&sdata=KNLNKWSnYkh9fGbQMZMtjSJq9Ms8%2FFO8EnGLGS6U2sI%3D&reserved=0
    >>>>>
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