[gnso-rpm-wg] 99%+ reduction in sunrise utilization rate per TLD supports EFF call for elimination of sunrise
Lori Schulman
lschulman at inta.org
Wed Aug 16 15:46:54 UTC 2017
Dear All,
We did discuss what should be included in at least 2 meetings of the full working group if I recall correctly. The group decided to proceed with the suggestions as proposed by the Sunrise sub team with some additions. I think it should be up to the entire working group if additional sources are to be added. Speaking in my capacity as chair of the subteam, at this point, given all of the opportunities for input, I am not sure that I would support opening up this question again or we will have more delays. We need to be able to move on to the task of actually reviewing the RPMs.
As for any open proposals, I support the idea that no proposals even if submitted now should be decided or even debated until we have fully assessed the impact of the RPMs and we are a long way from that. Right now, I think it is fair to assume the status quo until the working group determines that the status quo is not effective as long as that determination is supported by facts and reasoned arguments. Fully agree that we should be keeping open minds. Data collection is important but must be reasonable and tied to the task and, to your point, not assume answers. I don’t want to see this group get bogged down in data collection to the detriment of actually answering the questions. As I recently learned, a lot of the data that we think we need may not be kept in a form that is easy to collect nor related to the realities of business operations.
I would posit that any proposals are premature, even if allowed until the rules, until we have reached consensus on whether an RPM is fulling its intended purpose and whether it should remain “as is”, be improved, or discarded.
Lori
Lori S. Schulman
Senior Director, Internet Policy
International Trademark Association (INTA)
+1-202-704-0408, Skype: lsschulman
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:41 AM
To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] 99%+ reduction in sunrise utilization rate per TLD supports EFF call for elimination of sunrise
Thanks, and I hope that's a reasonable assumption!!
For some driving instruction related entertainment, I highly recommend the Mike Leigh film "Happy-Go-Lucky."
Greg
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
In my personal capacity, Greg (assuming I survive the driving).
Best, Kathy
On 8/16/2017 11:18 AM, Greg Shatan wrote:
Kathy,
Can you confirm whether this entire email is sent as your person opinion, or if any portion of it represents your views as a Co-Chair or a view of the Co-Chairs?
It's clear that your statement that the only concern about the discussion on this email thread is that it is untimely is your personal opinion. Thanks for that.
It's not clear whether the other statements are also your personal opinion, a view in the Co-Chair role, or a view of the Co-Chairs. A clarification would be much appreciated.
Good luck with the driving lessons! I have so far avoided that challenge -- perhaps because driving in New York City has struck fear into the hearts of my driving-age children. Just don't hold on to the dashboard so hard you leave handprints....
Thanks!
Greg
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi All,
Happy Summer to All who are celebrating it. I am teaching my teenage son to drive which makes every other challenge of my life look minor! I've reviewed the email of the last few days and want to thank everyone for a candid and frankly exciting discussion. These are difficult issues, and frankly, there was nothing boring about the discussion taking place here!
My only concern is that it is, in my personal opinion, untimely. We have yet to gather or review the data of the Sunrise Period questions. As the first group to review the Sunrise Period as a Consensus Policy, it seems to be very much within our ambit and duty to ask "is it fit for purpose?" "Is it being used?" "Is it being abused?" I believe all of these questions are part of the materials that Lori Schulman and the Sunrise Team have put before us. I see all of these questions - and some proposed answers -- in the email of the last few days.
I also see some intriguing ideas for tweaks to the system that might a) eliminate existing problems and b) serve the same TM protection goals (thank you Volker). My only issue is that we have yet to fully understand the existing problems. That's the goal of the data gathering and the process of evaluation and discussion ahead, right?
What seems to be the issue is whether Jeremy Malcolm's proposal to eliminate the Sunrise Period is valid. First, it was timely submitted so I see nothing procedurally that would remove it from consideration. Second, it seems pretty consistent with the larger evaluation taking place as we look at the TMCH Database generally, TM Claims, and Sunrise Period. We seem to be asking the same questions across all categories (which makes sense to me): is it fit for purpose, is it meeting that purpose, is it causing other unintended problems? In the end, what recommendations will be pass on to the GNSO Council, e.g., do we keep it, do we tweak it, do we expand it, do we remove it? do we reframe and revise it?
And yes, where we stand on these issues depends on where we sit (not my original quote :-)). Thank you for the preview of the robust discussion ahead! IMHO, this is a discussion for a later date after our review of the Sunrise Period data, inputs and findings.
Best, Kathy
On 8/14/2017 4:25 PM, Michael Graham (ELCA) wrote:
While interesting, I believe Volker’s proposal would add an additional level of clerical requirements while at the same time providing an additional point of possible error and effort in the process.
Michael R.
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 AM
To: trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com<mailto:trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com>; mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>
Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] 99%+ reduction in sunrise utilization rate per TLD supports EFF call for elimination of sunrise
That one is relatively easy. At this time, registries are already required to remove various lists of domains from the pool of available domains:
- domains blocked by ICANN
- domains blocked by policies or agreement (country names and abbreviations, etc)
- name collision matches
- for some geoTLDs: domains reverved by the government entity for their own use
- unpriced premium names
This proposal would simply add one further category of names that would be reserved for the general public, but open for registration by authorized entities. The TMCH would provide the list to the registry operators.
Best,
Volker
Am 11.08.2017 um 20:19 schrieb trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com<mailto:trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com>:
One other question. How do you propose removing the eligible sunrise domain names from the pool of available domain names? Would the TMCH provide a list of all unique marks registered to each registrar?
Best regards,
Marc H. Trachtenberg
Shareholder
Greenberg Traurig, LLP | 77 West Wacker Drive | Suite 3100 | Chicago, IL 60601
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[Greenberg Traurig]
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Rodenbaugh
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 1:13 PM
To: Volker Greimann
Cc: David A. Tait
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] 99%+ reduction in sunrise utilization rate per TLD supports EFF call for elimination of sunrise
I like Volker's idea at first glance. It seems at least worthy of exploration whether indeed it "would solve many of the existing issues." Volker could you provide a litte more depth to that -- what issues you think might be solved?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
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On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
I will not dispute the effectiveness of Sunrise periods for rights holders, however there may be better options that provide just as much protection but have less impact on the release of a new TLD.
For example, sunrise could be run concurrently with the general launch of a TLD simply by removing the eligible sunrise domain names from the pool of available domain names. Rights holders could still use their TMCH-tokens to register these semi-reserved strings as domain names but the release of the TLD to the general public would not be held back. Other potential registrants would merely receive a notice that this string is reserved until date X due to claimed rights of third parties (which could double as an abbreviated claims notice), or even opt to queue their registration request until the reservation period is over.
This would actually solve many of the existing issues.
Best,
Volker
Am 11.08.2017 um 15:12 schrieb Nahitchevansky, Georges:
I was not going to engage in yet more back and forth on sunrise, but in reading your email, and those of several others, I feel compelled to say something on this by the numbers discussion. This type of metric driven approach is very much akin to driving down a road with blinders on either side. It's a tad pedantic and as we know from history these types of approaches (many times pushed by bureaucrats) can often lead to disastrous decisions (e.g. Soviet style five year plans). You need to look at the overall situation and what is going on, as opposed to just getting caught up in the numbers -- which after all can get sliced and diced any number of ways. The reality is that brand owners are using sunrise to protect their brands in the key extensions that relate to their businesses. The numbers may not be huge per se, but the new gTLD program has pretty much, by all accounts, not been the success that ICANN had hoped for. Moreover, we all know that the success of the extensions has been quite uneven. Some are barely breaking even, some have been a great success, others have failed and yet others have only experienced lackluster results. What all of this means is that some extensions are simply not worth registering in.
That being said, sunrise does have an important value. If there are up to 100,000 plus registrations based on bona fide brands, and some on the most valuable brands in the world, then the system is working as it is preventing a significant amount of cybersquatting . If we go by he metrics you love, then it is not rocket science to figure out that a landrush approach is going to lead to a large spike of abuse (as we have seen in the past in no sunrise situations). This in turn leads to significant costs of investigating and pursuing infringements, all of which ultimately leads to more costs to consumers and loss of faith in the integrity of the system -- particularly if consumers get tricked or defrauded by a domain name that appears to be related to a brand (e.g., Gucci.shoes) and which could have been registered during a sunrise period.
So while I understand that brand owners are not making sunrise registrations across 1000 plus extensions, the point is that they are generally picking the most logical extensions and are not abusing the sunrise system. So whether the number is one percent or less or ten percent, that number doesn't really tell the story. 100,000 plus sunrise registrations prevents a ton of abuse, which benefits everyone in the end. The numbers only approach really misses the mark. It's like saying that if a disease affects less that 1% of the world population, we should not waste money on finding a cure for it and stop all funding on such research (even though the costs of treating the disease for the less than 1% will be staggeringly high).
So in closing, I again urge you to concentrate on trying to find a fix to address the limited speculator issue as opposed to beating a dead horse on the sunrise issue.
Original Message
From: George Kirikos
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:22 AM
To: gnso-rpm-wg
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] 99%+ reduction in sunrise utilization rate per TLD supports EFF call for elimination of sunrise
Hello,
On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> wrote:
I don't see the math that created your "talking point" of a "99%+ reduction
in sunrise." Can you show your work please?
The post at:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2017-August/002321.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mm.icann.org_pipermail_gnso-2Drpm-2Dwg_2017-2DAugust_002321.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=L7MB7eHT-UoCXD4iA3c7Sm3JrKXt7T1dG3NjBzCxm1c&m=jwg72GwxQbX1qNofe94rlCW9tHeCPXLavSkWToGTxv0&s=SaVSlCKYsOB5W4Cpqr6ExGPmyYwDyH9LIPojsca4QQM&e=>
showed numerous sunrise statistics, ranging from 15,000 on the low end
for .mobi (.co was slightly lower, although that's a ccTLD, not a TLD
that ICANN is involved with in any way), 32,000 for .asia, 80,000 for
.biz/.xxx, and who knows what it was for .info?
Even taking the lowest of those (15,000) as the base, 130 (average
new gTLD sunrise from The Analysis Group report) divided by 15,000 =
0.0087 = 0.87%, which is less than 1%, i.e. a 99%+ reduction. Of
course, if one chose a higher base (.asia, .xxx, .biz, .etc.), or an
average of those other sunrises, the reduction is even greater than if
one had used the lowest sunrise (from .mobi).
As for your other statement:
We can't expect Sunrise registrations to outperform the New gTLD Program generally."
While the new gTLD program has been a disaster, it hasn't been an
underperformance of 99%+ of expectations (perhaps more like 80% to 90%
underperformance). Thus, while it's obvious that both have been
failures, sunrise usage is an even greater failure than new gTLDs
overall. So, even on that relative scale, the sunrise period should be
eliminated.
Since I know you'll ask "George, why do you say there's been an 80% or
90% underpeformance for new gTLDs?" let me answer that now to save
time. I'll use as my reference (besides the obvious general
observations of most informed observers) ICANN's own stats:
http://domainincite.com/18857-new-gtld-sales-miss-icann-estimates-by-a-mile<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__domainincite.com_18857-2Dnew-2Dgtld-2Dsales-2Dmiss-2Dicann-2Destimates-2Dby-2Da-2Dmile&d=DwMFaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=L7MB7eHT-UoCXD4iA3c7Sm3JrKXt7T1dG3NjBzCxm1c&m=jwg72GwxQbX1qNofe94rlCW9tHeCPXLavSkWToGTxv0&s=ENSMgl5Vq0ESXh9K21BdGfbkWFgI8DEjafYfoyk6jdk&e=>
where the numbers came in at just 18% of ICANN's original 2014
expectations. For the math-challenged, 100% - 18% = 82% as the level
of underperformance.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos
416-588-0269<tel:416-588-0269>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901>
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851>
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
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Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901>
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851>
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
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