[gnso-rpm-wg] Critique of INTA survey

icannlists icannlists at winston.com
Thu Aug 31 02:07:24 UTC 2017

Hi George,

I've read with some amusement your various critiques of the INTA survey.  However, I could not find even imperfect surveys that you have submitted that tend to support your various positions taken on this list and on calls.  I hope you will be as open minded about what we can learn from what you view as a flawed survey as we have all been about your positions taken based on non-surveys.  However, if you have submitted surveys that tend to back your various positions -especially scientifically perfect ones - and I simply overlooked them, could you send them round again now?  Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:29 PM
To: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Critique of INTA survey


It is false to say the my comments have any bias or hostility. They are sound arguments. I was open to it being a scientifically valid survey, but then I read it, multiple times. So did Kurt (maybe not multiple times for him!?!?), who I have no affiliation with.

I don't know whether the working group chairs were aware of the study's deep flaws before they made the invitation to present it, or had even read it, but now they do. If they want to keep the schedule, I'll be there to ask the tough questions tonight, and let the PDP members that want to try to defend it do so.


George Kirikos

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Lori Schulman <lschulman at inta.org> wrote:
> Dear All,
> This working group chairs requested that I present INTA’s survey
> results and that I what I intend to do.  I am here to present existing
> data.  It is up to the group to decide if there is any value here.
> George comments show immediate bias and hostility toward the work
> before we have even started a discussion.  I have stated all along that the study was intended for another
> purpose and that we had challenges with conducting it.   If the PDP WG
> wishes to exclude the findings that is for the group to decide.  Everything
> we do is a learning.   George, if you feel that this evening’s call will
> have little or no value to  your participation, you have the option of
> not dialing in and listening to the recording at your convenience.
> Lori
> Lori S. Schulman
> Senior Director, Internet Policy
> International Trademark Association (INTA)
> +1-202-704-0408, Skype: lsschulman
> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org]
> On Behalf Of George Kirikos
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:05 PM
> To: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Critique of INTA survey
> P.S. There are roughly 8 hours to go until our scheduled call. I would
> invite Lori and/or INTA to simply withdraw the paper from this PDP
> (and the other ICANN group to which it was presented), since
> ultimately it is not a scientifically valid study. Any conclusions
> from it are indefensible.
> It would bring more credibility to INTA to withdraw it, in my opinion,
> recognizing it as deeply flawed now, rather than to attempt to defend
> it for 90 minutes tonight, and ultimately see it abandoned/ignored by
> the PDP. As a group, we're always seeking efficiencies --- withdrawing
> this paper and giving everyone back their Wednesday night appears to
> me to be "low hanging fruit" in that regard.
> The sooner it's withdrawn, the more time folks will have to make
> arrangements to enjoy their Wednesday evening.
> Sincerely,
> George Kirikos
> 416-588-0269
> http://www.leap.com/
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 2:13 PM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
>> Hi Kurt,
>> Thanks for mostly agreeing with my analysis. However:
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com> wrote:
>>> There was one conclusion I could draw. It states that UDRP and
>>> Sunrise were the favored rights protection mechanisms, used to a
>>> major or moderate extent by 67% and 64% of the respondents
>>> respectively. The next most utilized RPMs were Trademark Claims and
>>> URS (by 36% and 27% respectively). To me this says that, to those
>>> who are in-the-know, Sunrise is a highly-valued RPM and, therefore,
>>> should be continued. (Sorry, George) (see slides 15 and 51)
>> The first part of your conclusion is correct (obviously anyone who
>> personally benefits from "front of the line" privileges is going to
>> value it), but the second part (therefore, that it should be
>> continued) is NOT correct. As a PDP, our job is to weigh the benefits
>> against the costs of policy choices amongst ALL stakeholders, not
>> just ones receiving benefits.
>> Thus, if that was "the one conclusion (you) could draw", and it's now
>> debunked, then we're left with the truth, that no conclusions can be
>> drawn from it --- it's for entertainment value only, i.e. it's an
>> advocacy piece, marketing fluff, not a scientifically-valid survey
>> that would endure any serious peer review from those in the field of
>> statistics.
>> To be clear, I tried to keep yesterday's email as short as possible
>> (remember, it was a response to a very long document), and didn't
>> point out every flaw with the survey. To point out another, note that
>> on page 6 it notes that 67% of responses were from USA and Canada.
>> However, INTA's own website states that:
>> https://www.inta.org/Membership/Pages/Membership.aspx
>> "63% of our member organizations are outside of North America."
>> This further reinforces my point that it was an unrepresentative
>> sample. As we know from election polling, the survey companies make
>> adjustments in weighting to attempt to compensate for the
>> unrepresentative samples (e.g. if too many men were sampled relative
>> to the known proportion, they'd lower the weights accordingly, etc.).
>> No attempts were made to do this (nor could they credibly have done
>> so, given the small sample size, and lack of randomness).
>> This is a classic case of "If you torture the data long enough, it
>> will confess to anything."
>> Sincerely,
>> George Kirikos
>> 416-588-0269
>> http://www.leap.com/
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