[gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Fri Jun 9 16:43:21 UTC 2017
Hi Phil,
interesting question.
I figure the notice process would have to be removed from the order
process to be smooth and workable for all registration workflows. It
would also likely not require the registrant to "click a link" somewhere
as that is counter to all phishing warnings out there.
Ultimately, I assume this would result in a post-registration notice
with an option to return the domain name for a refund. Potentially such
a notice could be tied to the activation of the domain in the DNS.
I also like the model that .xxx used for confirmation of eligibility.
While it is not ideal, some form of post-registration requirement to
confirm to keep the ability to use the domain might work better and
reduce abandonment.
A general warning that the registrant has the obligation to check
whether the registration violates third party rights before completing
the request is included in the registration agreements of most
registrars anyway, so there already is a warning, even though it is not
specific.
(KS RA): /"Customer undertakes to guarantee that the applied-for domain
name and the intended use of the domain name: (a) do not violate rights
of third parties, (...)"/
Best,
Volker
Am 09.06.2017 um 18:26 schrieb Phil Corwin:
>
> Thanks Volker for that useful feedback.
>
> Is there a practical way to redesign the Notice process that aligns
> with registrar business practices while still generating Notice to
> applicants for at least exact matches of TMCH terms?
>
> Best, Philip
>
> *Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal*
>
> *Virtualaw LLC*
>
> *1155 F Street, NW*
>
> *Suite 1050*
>
> *Washington, DC 20004*
>
> *202-559-8597/Direct*
>
> *202-559-8750/Fax*
>
> *202-255-6172/Cell***
>
> **
>
> *Twitter: @VlawDC*
>
> */"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey/*
>
> *From:*gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Friday, June 09, 2017 12:12 PM
> *To:* Greg Shatan; J. Scott Evans
> *Cc:* gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
>
> Greg, thanks for asking.
>
> The way the process is designed, its requirements cannot be met in
> certain scenarios.
>
> The pre-order scenario conflicts with the requirement that the
> registration may only be requested if the agreement to the notice is
> not older than [x time]. So we cannot pre-fetch the notices and
> present them at the time of the order as the registration would occur
> at a time when the agreement to the notice has already expired. This
> is checked in the registration path, e.g. registrars have to provide
> the timestamp and other details during the registration.
>
> In the reseller scenario, we simply cannot meet the responsibility of
> making sure that the agreement is provided by the registrant and not
> another party. As this agreement happens outside of our system, we
> cannot make sure who confirmed the notice. Hence the need to get a
> notice directly to the registrant to ensure that he has seen the
> notice and confirmed his intent to register the string anyway.
> Anything else would require that all resellers insert code into their
> registration portals that we would provide, might not be compatible,
> etc. Many resellers also operate on third party platforms, such as
> Parallels/Odin, making additional implementation costly and
> time-consuming.
>
> Finally, even with our own direct customers we cannot be certain that
> the person owning the account is registering the domain name from
> himself. Personally, I manage the domain names of my entire extended
> family and have registered domains for many of them. They would be in
> the whois as registrants, but I would be the person making the order
> (and potentially confirming the notice).
>
> Essentially, the entire notice process was badly designed from the
> viewpoint of many registrars as it made assumptions about how the
> registration process works that missed the target in many cases. It
> causes consumer confusion, reseller frustration and loss of income for
> both registries and registrars from legitimate customers who simply do
> not realize they have to do an extra step that does not apply to all
> other regular registrations they do.
>
> Personally, I would advocate doing away with claims notices to domain
> applicants and simply relying on the notification process to the
> rights holders.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best,
> Volker
>
> Am 09.06.2017 um 17:53 schrieb Greg Shatan:
>
> I agree that our recommendations should include suggested data
> collection and metrics. The data desert we are wandering in needs
> to be irrigated so that it will bloom.
>
> I think Brian's data is helpful in that it provides some real data
> on a baseline of abandonment. Not enough to make conclusions but
> it provides some sense of a typical abandonment rate.
>
> I think Volker points out an implementation problem, but one that
> deserves better understanding -- why are some notices not able to
> be generated in the "normal" path? Where does the problem lie?
> This may make more sense to discuss when we reach discussion of
> the Claims Notice.
>
> So far, it's still my personal impression is that we don't have
> enough data to draw any conclusions regarding abandonment and its
> causes (Trademark Notice vs. Other Reasons, "Good" Chilling Effect
> v. "Bad" Chilling Effect).
>
> FYI FWIW, hotel.xyz <http://hotel.xyz> is available as a premium
> domain at the low, low price of $3,249.99 (Cheap! At least by
> comparison to hotel.design or hotel.party, which are $6,499.99)
>
> Also FYI, the owner of cloud.xyz <http://cloud.xyz> (which seems
> to resolve to a blank page) is:
>
> Registrant Name: Zhang Guo
> Registrant Organization: Zhang Guo
> Registrant Street: You Yi Lu 71Hao
> Registrant City: QHDS
> Registrant State/Province: HBS
> Registrant Postal Code: 066000
> Registrant Country: CN
> Registrant Phone: +86.13031887567
> Registrant Fax: +86.13031887567
> Registrant Email: saik56 at 163.com <mailto:saik56 at 163.com>
> Registry Admin ID: C123319878-CNIC
>
> G
>
> reg
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg
> <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
>
> Volker:
>
> Thanks for this perspective. I know that my marketing team
> struggles with what they call “stickiness” of a registration
> process. Specifically, they are always looking for ways to
> streamline the registration process because the “stickier” the
> process (the more steps need to complete registration) leads to a
> high drop off rate. Your antidotal evidence certainly aligns with
> the same type of situation my folks at Adobe find difficult in
> selling our subscriptions.
>
>
> J. Scott Evans
> 408.536.5336 <tel:408.536.5336> (tel)
> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
> Director, Trademarks
> 408.709.6162 <tel:408.709.6162> (cell)
> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
> jsevans at adobe.com <mailto:jsevans at adobe.com>
> www.adobe.com <http://www.adobe.com>
>
>
>
> On 6/9/17, 7:52 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Volker
> Greimann" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
> vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> There can be a significant drop-off due the necessity to
> present this
> notice seperate from the purchase process.
>
> Examples:
>
> 1) Potential Registrant pre-orders a domain: the notice cannot be
> presented at the time of purchase
>
> 2) Potential Registrant orders the domain through a reseller
> with its
> own front-end: the notice cannot be presented by the registrar
> in the
> purchase process
>
> Result => Notice has to be presented after the order is
> received but
> before it is executed in an alternate process, usually email.
> While we
> have not at the time measured the actual rate, we did note a
> significant
> drop-off between the numbers of registrants directed to visit
> a website
> where the notice could be presented and confirmed and the
> number of
> mails sent. The drop-off between the number of customers
> visiting the
> site, seeing the notice and then deciding not to pursue the
> registration
> was smaller.
>
> Conclusion: The current noticeconfirmation process that is
> supposed to
> be in the registration path does not work well in real life
> for many
> industry sales channel.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 09.06.2017 um 16:28 schrieb J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg:
> > Brain. Point taken. I don’t mean to be flippant. That said,
> I am growing increasing tired of there always being a negative
> inference from behaviors from those that are overall hostile to
> RPMs in general. My point is that as a proponent of RPMs and
> someone who worked diligently for over 9 months to come up with
> these RPMs that the abandonment rate does not automatically
> indicate that the system is not working as intended.
> >
> >
> > J. Scott Evans
> > 408.536.5336 <tel:408.536.5336> (tel)
> > 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
> > Director, Trademarks
> > 408.709.6162 (cell)
> > San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
> > Adobe. Make It an Experience.
> > jsevans at adobe.com <mailto:jsevans at adobe.com>
> > www.adobe.com <http://www.adobe.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/9/17, 7:24 AM, "Brian F. Cimbolic" <BCimbolic at pir.org
> <mailto:BCimbolic at pir.org>> wrote:
> >
> > J. Scott, respectfully, what evidence is there that the
> Claims notice provided to registrants is not having a chilling
> effect for those with no intention to infringe? I understand
> there is not direct evidence on either side of the issue, but to
> say decisively that it is "Not so" about the chilling effect
> without providing some evidence seems unnecessarily flippant.
> >
> > Brian Cimbolic
> > Deputy General Counsel, Public Interest Registry
> > Office: +1 703 889-5752 <tel:%2B1%20703%20889-5752>|
> Mobile: + 1 571 385-7871 <tel:%2B%201%20571%20385-7871>|
> >
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> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of J. Scott
> Evans via gnso-rpm-wg
> > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 10:19 AM
> > To: Rebecca Tushnet <Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu
> <mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu>>; Beckham, Brian
> <brian.beckham at wipo.int <mailto:brian.beckham at wipo.int>>
> > Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
> > Importance: High
> >
> > I will remind the group that Abandonment is the point.
> The TM Claims notice is designed to inform would-be innocent
> infringers that there is an issue. A high abandonment rate show
> that the system is working. I realize those hostile to the TM
> Claims feel that a high abandonment rate is proof that the Claims
> notice is overreaching. Not so.
> >
> > J. Scott
> >
> >
> > J. Scott Evans
> > 408.536.5336 <tel:408.536.5336> (tel)
> > 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
> > Director, Trademarks
> > 408.709.6162 <tel:408.709.6162> (cell)
> > San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
> > Adobe. Make It an Experience.
> > jsevans at adobe.com <mailto:jsevans at adobe.com>
> > www.adobe.com <http://www.adobe.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/9/17, 7:16 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Rebecca
> Tushnet" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
> Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu
> <mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu>> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Paul K. Unfortunately, we need better
> information than
> > that--we need to know about, of attempts that
> reached the stage at
> > which a notice would be provided, how many were
> abandoned. It's my
> > understanding--though I'd be happy to learn
> more--that the notice
> > wouldn't come when the shopping cart was filled but
> at checkout.
> >
> > If we just don't have the data, then it may be that
> our only
> > recommendation must be to get the data.
> > Rebecca Tushnet
> > Georgetown Law
> > 703 593 6759 <tel:703%20593%206759>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Beckham, Brian
> <brian.beckham at wipo.int <mailto:brian.beckham at wipo.int>> wrote:
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I’m not sure what is the right venue (i.e., in
> the sub-group, of which I am
> > > not a member, or to the full WG) to offer this,
> and it is offered merely to
> > > help fill out some of the questions/discussion
> around seeking various
> > > TMCH/Claims-related data.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In the transcript for the Sub Team for Trademark
> Claims call on Friday, 02
> > > June 2017 at 16:00 UTC, there was some discussion
> on abandonment rates. In
> > > summary: Rebeca Tushnet suggested it would be
> helpful to compare
> > > non-TMCH-related abandonment vs “regular”
> abandonment. Jeff Neuman recalled
> > > that during the BIZ launch there was a high
> abandonment. Phil Corwin
> > > suggested that if the non-TMCH-related
> abandonment rate was 80% then it may
> > > be reasonable to conclude that there’s not a
> material difference between
> > > those subject to claims notices.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mindful that it may be difficult or even
> impossible to obtain the desired
> > > data (a number of reasons, including competitive
> (dis-)advantages, were
> > > raised on the call), a recent GoDaddy post
> informs us that “An average
> > > website loses 69 percent of sales to abandoned
> carts.” A second GoDaddy
> > > article suggests it is 67%.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > See
> > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godaddy.com%2Fgarage%2Fsmallbusiness%2Fmarket%2Feffective-strategies-to-boost-abandoned-cart-email-conversion-rates%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971754867&sdata=PtxSnnbDMNsumNMyaHdzoZZY0jowSqg1LeeFXqplKq4%3D&reserved=0
> > > and
> > >
> > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godaddy.com%2Fgarage%2Findustry%2Fretail%2Fecommerce%2Fwant-to-to-increase-sales-reduce-shopping-cart-abandonment%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971754867&sdata=aOJ1E7T6ITmYfP4bMNsvQ7dJAj3QrswMl4YK42BQp6c%3D&reserved=0.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are many articles on this topic with
> varying figures, but they tended
> > > to generally note abandonment rates upwards of 60%.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The takeaway is that the TMCH-Claims rates
> observed here in the WG, while
> > > different/higher, are arguably not materially
> different than e-commerce
> > > statistics generally (certainly not the 20% noted
> by Phil Corwin as
> > > signaling “a significant difference in the
> completion of registration.”).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is important here to recall too that many
> members of the WG have noted
> > > that (for a number of reasons) registries,
> registrars, and registrants may
> > > have been sending queries in large numbers, thus
> skewing the data upwards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian Beckham | Head, Internet Dispute Resolution
> Section | WIPO Arbitration
> > > and Mediation Center
> > > 34 chemin des Colombettes, 1211 Geneva 20,
> Switzerland | T +4122 338 8247 <tel:%2B4122%20338%208247> |
> > > E brian.beckham at wipo.int
> <mailto:brian.beckham at wipo.int> |
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.wipo.int&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971754867&sdata=lenvIEKAPus7F2zCjYUJaxaYKhFe8%2B8rBpfZriFt75Y%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
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> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
> Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate
> to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:
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>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and
> stay updated:
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>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.keydrive.lu&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0810a866745c4ea05a3908d4af4719f8%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326167299646355&sdata=YVpDJuVJOBKjm6uNoha%2FOi0LV8A35gVLwMyUD0heZ2c%3D&reserved=0
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
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> publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose,
> copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or
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> author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> --------------------------------------------
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> Best regards,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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