[gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week

Jonathan Agmon jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal
Tue May 2 07:15:54 UTC 2017


Actually it was on the previous sentence.  The word “No” is not a sentence ☺ And luckily not even a GI…

As to broad agreement, I would think that broad agreement should be a worldwide view as opposed to a US view (as you so clearly analyze US law), but then again, aside from a couple of other WG members you have the majority and I am after all in UTC+8 ☺.

Perhaps, we should follow Massimo’s lead and see how rights owners worldwide can enjoy a better and more comprehensive TMCH.





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Jonathan Agmon (胡韩森)

Advocate, Director

Attorney and Counsellor at Law (admitted in New York)

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From: Greg Shatan [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:53 AM
To: Jonathan Agmon <jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>>
Cc: icannlists <icannlists at winston.com<mailto:icannlists at winston.com>>; J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week

Jonathan,

I expect we might disagree on the last sentence, which is "No."  As for the day job, I believe you are not alone in that regard.

In any event, i don't think the issue whether you disagree with my conclusion or my analysis (which is in other emails, which I respectfully believe have already "centralized" the discussion. I assume you have read those as well).  Rather, I think the issue is whether the Working Group needs to continue this discussion in order to come to broad agreement on the issue.

I'll leave it to the Co-Chairs to decide when and whether to bring the discussion to a close.  However, I would observe that any position that finds me, Paul McGrady, Brian Winterfeldt, Paul Keating and Jeremy Malcolm in agreement can fairly be characterized as "broad agreement."

Best regards,

Greg




Greg Shatan
C: 917-816-6428
S: gsshatan
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428
gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 12:27 AM, Jonathan Agmon <jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>> wrote:
Greg, we are in disagreement on the last sentence, but I have a day job so I will respond later today to your previous post to try and centralize the discussion.

Thanks,





[cid:image001.png at 01D2C324.AF1B5A10]


Jonathan Agmon (胡韩森)

Advocate, Director

Attorney and Counsellor at Law (admitted in New York)

jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>

www.ip-law.legal<http://www.ip-law.legal>




T SG +65 6532 2577<tel:+65%206532%202577>

T US +1 212 999 6180

T IL +972 9 950 7000

F IL +972 9 950 5500


Soroker Agmon Nordman Pte Ltd.

133 New Bridge Road, #13-02, 059413 SINGAPORE

8 Hahoshlim Street P.O. Box 12425 4672408 Herzliya, ISRAEL




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From: Greg Shatan [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 7:18 PM
To: Jonathan Agmon <jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>>
Cc: icannlists <icannlists at winston.com<mailto:icannlists at winston.com>>; J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week

I think this makes our job simpler -- in this WG at least.

Jonathan has clarified that the idea of a GICH, GI Sunrise or GI Claims is not before us in this Working Group.

The question then is simply whether GIs as such (and not only when they are protected under trademark law as trademarks) should be included in Trademark Sunrise, Trademark Claims and (as the tool behind these RPMs) the Trademark Clearinghouse.

Since it's clear that GIs are not in fact (either under US law or generally), a "subset" of trademarks, I think the answer to the question is simple.

No.


Greg Shatan
C: 917-816-6428<tel:(917)%20816-6428>
S: gsshatan
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<tel:(646)%20845-9428>
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On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:41 PM, Jonathan Agmon <jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>> wrote:
Dear Paul,

I most certainly have not.

The USPTO classifies GIs as a subset of trademarks. Most other countries on the planet view them similarly as an indication of source of goods and they are registered in either national trademark registries or specific GI registries.

What I stated was that GIs registered in both national trademark registry and national GI registry should enter the TMCH. No more, no less; or as some of the other colleagues on the list would put it – period. ☺

The fact that you disagree that GIs can serve and do serve as trademarks is your own view and opinion, which you are mostly certainly entitled thereto. Thus, if you want to go ahead and suggest an alternative proposal to mine which recommends working on a GICH or other Claims/Sunrise processes, please go ahead. Otherwise, kindly don't artificially amend my proposal to include in it language I did not put in.

Kind regards,


[cid:image002.png at 01D2C324.AF1B5A10]


Jonathan Agmon (胡韩森)

Advocate, Director

Attorney and Counsellor at Law (admitted in New York)

jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>

www.ip-law.legal<http://www.ip-law.legal>




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F IL +972 9 950 5500<tel:+972%209-950-5500>


Soroker Agmon Nordman Pte Ltd.

133 New Bridge Road, #13-02, 059413 SINGAPORE

8 Hahoshlim Street P.O. Box 12425 4672408 Herzliya, ISRAEL




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On 1 May 2017, at 4:01, icannlists <icannlists at winston.com<mailto:icannlists at winston.com>> wrote:
You have Jonathan.  Under current policy as implemented by the Board in the AGB, we don’t currently have a clearinghouse mechanism to hold GIs that are not also registered as trademarks nor do we have any Sunrise-like or Claims-like mechanisms to use any future GI data that may be lodged in a GICH.  The TMCH took months to develop and so would a GICH.  I see no reason to assume that GIs should automatically co-reside with trademarks in the TMCH nor any reason to assume that the parameters of any Claims or Sunrises based on GI data would be co-extensive with TM Claims and Sunrise.  If this GIs issue persists, i.e. we do anything with it other than a recommendation asking the GNSO Council to ask the Board to tell the TMCH operator to stop letting GIs in and retire the ones they have let in, we will be developing new policy (not insisting on accurate implementation of old policy) and thus starting from scratch to address it.  Any effort to develop new RPMs will add months (years?) to this process.

Best,
Paul



From: Jonathan Agmon [mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal]
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 8:55 AM
To: Jeremy Malcolm <jmalcolm at eff.org<mailto:jmalcolm at eff.org>>; J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>>; icannlists <icannlists at winston.com<mailto:icannlists at winston.com>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week

Paul,

Who suggested "that a separate GICH be built along with GISunrise and GIClaims"?

I didn't see such a proposal...

Perhaps you can direct us to one?

Thanks?



<image001.png>


Jonathan Agmon (胡韩森)

Advocate, Director

Attorney and Counsellor at Law (admitted in New York)

jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal<mailto:jonathan.agmon at ip-law.legal>

www.ip-law.legal<http://www.ip-law.legal>


T SG +65 6532 2577<tel:+65%206532%202577>

T US +1 212 999 6180<tel:(212)%20999-6180>

T IL +972 9 950 7000<tel:+972%209-950-7000>

F IL +972 9 950 5500<tel:+972%209-950-5500>


Soroker Agmon Nordman Pte Ltd.

133 New Bridge Road, #13-02, 059413 SINGAPORE

8 Hahoshlim Street P.O. Box 12425 4672408 Herzliya, ISRAEL


This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


From: icannlists at winston.com<mailto:icannlists at winston.com>
Sent: 30 April 2017 20:00
To: jmalcolm at eff.org<mailto:jmalcolm at eff.org>; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week


Thanks Jeremy.  I think the problem came up because the TMCH operator has let a few in under an assumption, even though no one can find any guidance in the GNSO Policy, IRT Recommendations, STI Report, Board Resolutions or the AGB supporting the notion.  If this group doesn’t affirmatively say “stop that” then presumably the TMCH operator will keep doing it and more GIs will get in.  So, unless we are happy with the status quo where the TMCH operator is letting in things no one intended to be let in, I think we have to address the issue.

Even so, there are those on the list who want GIs to be welcome into the TMCH or that a separate GICH be built along with GISunrise and GIClaims.  While these things are not necessary off-charter, such activities could easily add a year or more to this PDP.  That is not my favorite outcome.

Best,
Paul


From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Malcolm
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:22 PM
To: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Agenda and documents for Working Group call this week

On 29/4/17 6:32 am, Jonathan Agmon wrote:
The USPTO is in the US. Perhaps the EPO's and many other Trademark Offices' positions is also relevant. My point, which I feel I am not getting through, is that the US positron is not the only one.  Nearly every country on the planet has some laws relating to GI protection and I am arguing most of them view them as a form of trademarks.  I don't see the reason why not to include a registered GI in the TMCH. They are after all trademarks, when registered. Can you help me out here to understand your objection and the reasons for it? If others (non US countries) see GIs as trademarks and allow them to be registered, why exclude them?

Forgive my ignorance, has this discussion happened elsewhere?  The proposition that GIs should be recognized alongside trademarks in the DNS is surely a far bigger one than the RPMs working group.  Not the kind of thing that we could just slip in as an assumption.  I for one would certainly have a lot more to say about the merits of recognizing GIs in the DNS, if that were our discussion.  But I doubt it's a discussion for this working group.

--

Jeremy Malcolm

Senior Global Policy Analyst

Electronic Frontier Foundation

https://eff.org

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