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<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Hi All, I tried to post
this message last night. If anyone else is having problems
posting to our list, please let me, J. Scott or Phil know. <br>
</font></p>
<p>------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Dear All, <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">For those of us who go
back to the beginning of time on these issues, I want to note
how happy I am that our call for new participants has been
answered. We have a number of new members on the Working Group,
and they bring new questions, extensive backgrounds and
expertise and new avenues of inquiry. We have the old guard who
have worked on these issues for years. All are welcome and
appreciated!</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I also appreciate our
dynamic discussion in and after the Working Group meeting today.
We are working on the issue of what is within scope for our
discussion of the Trademark Clearinghouse generally, and today,
the Trademark Claims Services in particular. One of the
questions that has been solidly placed before us (in different
forms and different ways) is whether the current Rights
Protection Mechanisms and the TMCH Services are fair and
balanced. Do both trademark owners and nontrademark owners have
appropriate and legal access to domain names?</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Important questions
were raised today about trademark rights and the limits of
trademark rights. It is an inquiry that goes back to the Special
Trademarks Initiative Group of the GNSO, if not before. It seems
a very appropriate part of our inquiry to ask whether in a
hypothetical .FORPRESIDENT New gTLD, we have a TMCH system that
allows Clinton Watches, Clinton Fences and Clinton Printing
Paper to register CLINTON.FORPRESIDENT before Secretary Hillary
Clinton? <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">When basic words of
political discourse such as FREEDOM (USPTO IC 028 Mounts and
mounting devices adapted for use with suspended physical fitness
equipment. Reg No. 5042693), LIBERTY (USPTO IC 009 Hearing
muffs, namely, sound amplifiers. Reg No. 4793635), and TRUST
(USPTO IC 028. In-line skate liners. Reg No. 4301142) are used
as trademarks, but also play an integral role in the fabric of
political dialogue, we have a Free Expression issue and concern
before us. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">That was our goal for
today - not answers, but questions. I think we found some good
ones...<br>
</font></p>
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Best, <br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/28/2016 3:07 PM, J. Scott Evans
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D4116134.120DD%25jsevans@adobe.com"
type="cite">
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<div>Rebecca:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regard to your last point, I believe we have a
problem with nomenclature that has plagued this debate for
17 years. To your last point, I believe you are speaking
“dictionary terms” that, in certain instances, can also be
generic terms. Apple for apples is a generic. Apple for
apple juice is descriptive or perhaps suggestive. Apple for
smartphones is arbitrary. I do not believe that trademark
owners should have the right to thwart criticism or protest
or to prevent third parties with equally legitimate rights
from using a string that may well be identical to a
trademark, so long as the use in the domain is, in fact,
non-infringing. What I worry about is the emotional argument
and posturing about free speech in this debate. There seems
to be a constant implied argument that trademark owners as a
whole wish to squelch “internationally” recognized concepts
of free speech. Yes, there are over aggressive trademark
owners that seek to abuse the RPMs and trademark laws.
Equally true, there a scurilous players in the DNS that seek
to infringe the rights of trademark owners to the detriment
of consumers. Our job is to try and find a balanced way of
protecting both interests.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>J. Scott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><font color="#7f7f7f"><b><font
face="Helvetica">J. Scott Evans</font></b> <b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">| </span><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">Associate General
Counsel - Trademarks, Copyright, Domains &
Marketing</span> <span style="font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif;">|</span></b></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><font face="Helvetica"
color="#ff0000"><b>Adobe </b></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><font face="Helvetica"
color="#7f7f7f">345 Park Avenue<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"></span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><font face="Helvetica"
color="#7f7f7f">San Jose, CA 95110<br>
408.536.5336 (tel), 408.709.6162 (cell)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jsevans@adobe.com" style="color:
rgb(149, 79, 114);">jsevans@adobe.com</a></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><font color="#7f7f7f"><font
face="Helvetica"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.adobe.c">www.adobe.c</a></font><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">om</span></font></p>
</div>
<div><font color="#7f7f7f"><span style="font-family:
Helvetica;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Rebecca Tushnet
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rlt26@law.georgetown.edu">rlt26@law.georgetown.edu</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday,
September 28, 2016 at 11:39 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"J. Scott Evans"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jsevans@adobe.com">jsevans@adobe.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE:
[gnso-rpm-wg] "free speech"<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">J. Scott, I don’t believe my statement holds
up US First Amendment law as the standard; let me
say again that freedom of speech, not the First
Amendment, is an internationally recognized value,
and that criticism of private businesses is
generally part of freedom of speech. FWIW, I don’t
recognize Wikipedia as authoritative either, though
the entry actually provides helpful external links
if you peruse it.<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Further resources on comparative freedom of
speech regimes include the very helpful overview at
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1633231"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1633231</span></a><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> and the many
sources cited therein (if any nonlawyers lack access
to the cited works, I may be able to help), as well as
Ronald
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://1.next.westlaw.com/Document/I7cb6ccefefd311e498db8b09b4f043e0/View/FullText.html?navigationPath=Search%2Fv3%2Fsearch%2Fresults%2Fnavigation%2Fi0ad6040a00000157720fabec289f3264%3FNav%3DANALYTICAL%26fragmentIdentifier%3DI7cb6ccefefd311e498db8b09b4f043e0%26startIndex%3D1%26contextData%3D%2528sc.Search%2529%26transitionType%3DSearchItem&listSource=Search&listPageSource=3b36d775a69aec3c8b89adc711488adc&list=ANALYTICAL&rank=8&grading=na&sessionScopeId=974384ae4bca6a686949f50a8f8ca2525f0f068a2ff02f65c47cc9b4335d4752&originationContext=Search%20Result&transitionType=SearchItem&contextData=%28sc.Search%29#co_term_19621"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 0, 102);
background-color: white; background-position:
initial initial; background-repeat: initial
initial;">Krotoszynski, Jr., The First Amendment in
Cross-Cultural Perspective:</span></a> A Comparative
Legal Analysis of the Freedom of Speech (2006).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Also, many jurisdictions don’t use the
terminology of “fair use,” but as far as I am aware
very few consider all criticism, or all unauthorized
use of a term, infringing; indeed, it would perhaps be
helpful, especially for the nonlawyers in the group,
to see the citations on which you are basing your
legal statements about the scope of trademark or
speech rights outside the US.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Finally, the problem we are facing is that
there is no neutral baseline here, and we have already
adopted substantial protections for trademark rights
claimants who have any recognized rights in <i>any</i>
relevant jurisdiction; we should recognize the variety
of freedom of speech interests the same as we
recognize the variety of trademark rights. As Kathy
noted on the call, a significant number of the
relevant marks are generic for at least some things
and not universally famous, which increases the
breadth of rights protections far beyond actual
rights.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Rebecca Tushnet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Georgetown Law<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">703 593 6759<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;"> J. Scott Evans [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jsevans@adobe.com">mailto:jsevans@adobe.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 28, 2016 2:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rebecca Tushnet<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] "free speech"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;">Rebecca:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;">Thanks
for weighing in here. First, I do not use
Wikipedia as a definitive source for anything
related to the law. It is interesting reading and
may require that I go to more definitive sources
to verify, but I do not put much stock in it as
the absolute “truth” on any subject. Second, many
countries have almost an exact replica of the US
Constitution, but don’t recognize the provision
related to free speech. Likewise, many
jurisdictions do not recognize the concept of
“fair use.” My only point our call was that there
are many non-lawyers participating. I think many
time views are put forth on our calls that could
be seen as misleading. It is one thing to hold the
US concept of free speech up as the standard
bearer that we should aspire to in our work (I
could also argue that US concept of IP protection
should also be held up as an appropriate
standard). However, in my experiences at ICANN
since we originally drafted, it has constantly
been pointed out that we SHOULD NOT apply US-like
trademark protections to the ICANN RPMs since
different jurisdictions view trademarks
differently. I can theoretically see the rationale
behind this argument. Unfortunately for me,
however, I fail to see how the concept of US free
speech should be universally applied, but US-like
trademark protections should not. I think that is
intellectually inconsistent. As for the UN’s
Universal Declaration of Human Rights and its
signatories, I think the same position could be
taken with regard to the Paris Convention and its
signatories. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;">J.
Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);">J. Scott Evans</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);"> </span><b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);">| Associate General Counsel -
Trademarks, Copyright, Domains & Marketing</span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);"> </span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);">|</span></b><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color:
black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: red;">Adobe </span></b><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);">345 Park Avenue</span><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);">San Jose, CA 95110<br>
408.536.5336 (tel), 408.709.6162 (cell)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jsevans@adobe.com"><span
style="color:#954F72">jsevans@adobe.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127,
127);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adobe.com">www.adobe.com</a></span><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: 'Lucida Grande', serif; color:
black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: 'Lucida Grande', serif; color: black;"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Rebecca Tushnet <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rlt26@law.georgetown.edu">rlt26@law.georgetown.edu</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 10:34
AM<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[gnso-rpm-wg] "free speech"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Just to correct a misstatement on the
call earlier: Most nations don’t have a US-style
First Amendment. Most nations with a rule of law
do, however, recognize freedom of speech in some
form, including the right to criticize private
companies. As this Wikipedia entry notes,
</span><span style="color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">,
implementation can be inconsistent on the ground,
but I expect that inconsistent enforcement of
trademark rights on the ground doesn’t mean that
trademark owners want ICANN to ignore the law on
the books; freedom of speech is equally a
principle worth honoring. In addition, I don’t
know how many countries whose nationals
participate in the ICANN process have signed on to
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which
includes freedom of speech,
</span><span style="color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">, but I
doubt we want to make policy based on the
countries that don’t recognize any freedom of
speech at all.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Also, you can’t have it both ways: if
domain names can facilitate infringement, which
they absolutely can, then they convey meaning; if
they convey meaning, they can also facilitate
noninfringing conduct or affirmatively protected
freedom of speech. It is just as true, or untrue,
that a trademark owner can register a different
string if it can’t have the one that it wants as
it is that a person making fair or otherwise
noninfringing use can do so. This is especially
so if we’ve given trademark owners the ability to
jump the line in many circumstances. Freedom of
speech principles may help tell us when preclusion
of a domain name to a speaker—whether a trademark
owner or a non-owner—is of particular importance.
That is, they can help us identify the important
false positives (notifications generated in
response to domain names that wouldn’t infringe).</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Rebecca Tushnet</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Georgetown Law</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">703 593 6759</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
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