<div>We have no idea who abandoned these registration attempts, or even if it was done by humans, much less rightsholders.</div><div><br></div><div>If we want to make assumptions that support arguments, rather than engaging in evidence-based inquiry, I'll offer the assumption that all the abandoned carts were started by cybersquatters that intended to use the domains to engage in spam, malware, phishing, spearphishing, fraud, theft and botnet farming.</div><div><br></div><div>Greg<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:27 PM Rebecca Tushnet <<a href="mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu">Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Forwarding to match.<br>
<br>
If you think that lots of people have valid uses--including rights--in<br>
those terms, then when they stop trying to register those terms, that<br>
is overdeterrence. I think what I said was clear.<br>
<br>
Rebecca Tushnet<br>
Georgetown Law<br>
703 593 6759<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Your guess -- and overdeterrence is just a guess, with nothing to back it up<br>
> -- is as good as mine. My guess is that it absolutely is not<br>
> overdeterrence.<br>
><br>
> And my point was that your statement was a mischaracterization of the way<br>
> the TMCH, Sunrise and Claims work, as well as a mischaracterization of how<br>
> trademarks work. So I don't think "My point exactly" is what you meant to<br>
> say (though I wish it were).<br>
><br>
> Greg<br>
><br>
> Greg Shatan<br>
> C: 917-816-6428<br>
> S: gsshatan<br>
> Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br>
> <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:57 PM, Rebecca Tushnet<br>
> <<a href="mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu" target="_blank">Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> My point exactly. So what explains the over 90% abandonment rate,<br>
>> other than overdeterrence, especially with those most returned terms?<br>
>> Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> Georgetown Law<br>
>> 703 593 6759<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> > "Maybe absolutely no one else besides the TMCH entrant/s had a<br>
>> > legitimate<br>
>> > business using those terms."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > That is clearly and absolutely not the basis of trademark rights,<br>
>> > trademark<br>
>> > registration or entry into the TMCH. Nor is it the way Sunrise or<br>
>> > Claims<br>
>> > work. Ridiculous.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Greg<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Greg Shatan<br>
>> > C: 917-816-6428<br>
>> > S: gsshatan<br>
>> > Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:45 PM, Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu" target="_blank">Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Yes, because we don't have good survey evidence, one of the questions<br>
>> >> is what we can infer from the circumstantial evidence available to us,<br>
>> >> particularly the over 90% abandonment rate combined with the top<br>
>> >> queries being words like forex, cloud, and love. Maybe absolutely no<br>
>> >> one else besides the TMCH entrant/s had a legitimate business using<br>
>> >> those terms. But I doubt it.<br>
>> >> Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> >> Georgetown Law<br>
>> >> 703 593 6759<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:37 PM, icannlists <<a href="mailto:icannlists@winston.com" target="_blank">icannlists@winston.com</a>><br>
>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >> > Thanks Rebecca. I've never heard of a trademark owner being deterred<br>
>> >> > by<br>
>> >> > a claims notice since one of the explicit defenses in the UDRP is<br>
>> >> > when a<br>
>> >> > registrant has rights or legitimate interests in a corresponding<br>
>> >> > trademark.<br>
>> >> > So, I think that one may be a bit of a red herring.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > However, your comment about avoiding overreach is well received and<br>
>> >> > we<br>
>> >> > should keep it in mind while at the same time not under-reaching<br>
>> >> > either -<br>
>> >> > when we do that, Grandma gets phished.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Best,<br>
>> >> > Paul<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> > From: Rebecca Tushnet [mailto:<a href="mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu" target="_blank">Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu</a>]<br>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:17 PM<br>
>> >> > To: icannlists <<a href="mailto:icannlists@winston.com" target="_blank">icannlists@winston.com</a>><br>
>> >> > Cc: Silver, Bradley <<a href="mailto:Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com" target="_blank">Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com</a>>;<br>
>> >> > <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Recommendation for Questions #7 and #16<br>
>> >> > (Design Mark and Appropriate Balance)<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Avoiding overreaching is pro-trademark, as the public reaction to<br>
>> >> > SOPA/PIPA and patent trolls has shown with respect to copyright and<br>
>> >> > patent.<br>
>> >> > There are also the interests of trademark owners who aren't<br>
>> >> > participating in<br>
>> >> > this process but may want to register domain names that are perfectly<br>
>> >> > legitimate for their goods/services and jurisdictions. Some of them<br>
>> >> > may<br>
>> >> > inevitably receive notices and be deterred, but there are steps we<br>
>> >> > can take<br>
>> >> > to limit that problem.<br>
>> >> > Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> >> > Georgetown Law<br>
>> >> > 703 593 6759<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:50 PM, icannlists <<a href="mailto:icannlists@winston.com" target="_blank">icannlists@winston.com</a>><br>
>> >> > wrote:<br>
>> >> >> Thanks Rebecca. I'm not characterizing you as anti-trademark; just<br>
>> >> >> your arguments and positions to date on this list. We would very<br>
>> >> >> much<br>
>> >> >> welcome anything favorable to trademarks that you wish to add to the<br>
>> >> >> discourse.<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> Best,<br>
>> >> >> Paul<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> >> From: Rebecca Tushnet [mailto:<a href="mailto:Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu" target="_blank">Rebecca.Tushnet@law.georgetown.edu</a>]<br>
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:00 PM<br>
>> >> >> To: icannlists <<a href="mailto:icannlists@winston.com" target="_blank">icannlists@winston.com</a>><br>
>> >> >> Cc: Silver, Bradley <<a href="mailto:Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com" target="_blank">Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com</a>>;<br>
>> >> >> <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Recommendation for Questions #7 and #16<br>
>> >> >> (Design Mark and Appropriate Balance)<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> Please don't characterize me as anti-trademark; I strongly believe<br>
>> >> >> in<br>
>> >> >> the consumer protection function of trademarks, and also in<br>
>> >> >> trademark<br>
>> >> >> protection in some circumstances for business purposes. See<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> <a href="https://harvardlawreview.org/2017/01/registering-disagreement-registra" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://harvardlawreview.org/2017/01/registering-disagreement-registra</a><br>
>> >> >> tion-in-modern-american-trademark-law/<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> Asking again: for those of you who think it doesn't matter if<br>
>> >> >> claimants<br>
>> >> >> who don't own relevant rights get to use the TMCH, what then did<br>
>> >> >> ICANN mean<br>
>> >> >> by its stated intent not to expand trademark rights?<br>
>> >> >> Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> >> >> Georgetown Law<br>
>> >> >> 703 593 6759<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 PM, icannlists <<a href="mailto:icannlists@winston.com" target="_blank">icannlists@winston.com</a>><br>
>> >> >> wrote:<br>
>> >> >>> Thanks Rebecca. There is not much new here. Whomever registers a<br>
>> >> >>> second level domain name first (Sunrise - TM owner), Premium (Rich<br>
>> >> >>> person)<br>
>> >> >>> or Landrush (TM owner who didn't want to pay the Sunrise shakedown<br>
>> >> >>> price or<br>
>> >> >>> regular folks like all of us), someone gets the exclusive rights to<br>
>> >> >>> that<br>
>> >> >>> second level. So, it is not just a question of if, but of when and<br>
>> >> >>> who. I<br>
>> >> >>> think it is OK to just say "I don't want it to be a trademark<br>
>> >> >>> owner."<br>
>> >> >>> Others will disagree, but we don't have to keep this in a<br>
>> >> >>> mysterious context<br>
>> >> >>> or otherwise try to layer on some free speech issue that doesn't<br>
>> >> >>> exist.<br>
>> >> >>> Trademark owners want them first in order to protect their brands<br>
>> >> >>> and<br>
>> >> >>> consumers. Others who are anti-trademarks don't want them to have<br>
>> >> >>> them<br>
>> >> >>> first and would prefer someone else gets the exclusive right. Fair<br>
>> >> >>> enough.<br>
>> >> >>> Now we see if we can get to consensus on changing the AGB. I doubt<br>
>> >> >>> we will,<br>
>> >> >>> but at least the free speech veneer is pulled back.<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>> Best,<br>
>> >> >>> Paul<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> >>> From: <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> >>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of Rebecca Tushnet<br>
>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 3:11 PM<br>
>> >> >>> To: Silver, Bradley <<a href="mailto:Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com" target="_blank">Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com</a>><br>
>> >> >>> Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Recommendation for Questions #7 and #16<br>
>> >> >>> (Design Mark and Appropriate Balance)<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>> By that logic the mandate not to expand on trademark rights would<br>
>> >> >>> have been pointless because no activity in domain name space could<br>
>> >> >>> ever have expanded trademark rights. Call it a right, call it a<br>
>> >> >>> privilege, call it an alien from Xenon if you like, but ICANN did<br>
>> >> >>> not<br>
>> >> >>> want trademark owners to be able to assert control over domain<br>
>> >> >>> names<br>
>> >> >>> in excess of what underlying trademark law would have allowed.<br>
>> >> >>> Under<br>
>> >> >>> the "nothing in domain names can expand trademark rights because<br>
>> >> >>> they're never exclusive" logic, was the ICANN direction completely<br>
>> >> >>> meaningless, or did it have some meaning? (Trademark rights, of<br>
>> >> >>> course, are never "exclusive" either, which is why we can use any<br>
>> >> >>> examples we want in this discussion.) Rebecca Tushnet Georgetown<br>
>> >> >>> Law<br>
>> >> >>> 703 593 6759<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Silver, Bradley via gnso-rpm-wg<br>
>> >> >>> <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >>>> Jeremy - the TMCH does not allow exclusive rights in domains.<br>
>> >> >>>> Having<br>
>> >> >>>> a mark in the TMCH affords nothing close an exclusive right.<br>
>> >> >>>> That's a basic<br>
>> >> >>>> truth which shouldn’t be ignored.<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> >>>> From: <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> >>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jeremy Malcolm<br>
>> >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 1:32 PM<br>
>> >> >>>> To: <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Recommendation for Questions #7 and #16<br>
>> >> >>>> (Design Mark and Appropriate Balance)<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> On 26/4/17 9:00 am, Colin O'Brien wrote:<br>
>> >> >>>>> Nice try Rebecca but I'm not attempting to overturn the apple<br>
>> >> >>>>> cart.<br>
>> >> >>>>> If you have actual examples of problems then provide them<br>
>> >> >>>>> otherwise this is<br>
>> >> >>>>> an indulgent academic exercise.<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> The fact that the TMCH is allowing exclusive rights in domains<br>
>> >> >>>> that<br>
>> >> >>>> go beyond the equivalent rights in domestic trademark law is<br>
>> >> >>>> itself a<br>
>> >> >>>> problem if we accept that the TMCH was meant to track trademark<br>
>> >> >>>> law.<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> --<br>
>> >> >>>> Jeremy Malcolm<br>
>> >> >>>> Senior Global Policy Analyst<br>
>> >> >>>> Electronic Frontier Foundation<br>
>> >> >>>> <a href="https://eff.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eff.org</a><br>
>> >> >>>> <a href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org" target="_blank">jmalcolm@eff.org</a><br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> :: Defending Your Rights in the Digital World ::<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> Public key: <a href="https://www.eff.org/files/2016/11/27/key_jmalcolm.txt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/files/2016/11/27/key_jmalcolm.txt</a><br>
>> >> >>>> PGP fingerprint: 75D2 4C0D 35EA EA2F 8CA8 8F79 4911 EC4A EDDF 1122<br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>><br>
>> >> >>>> ====================================================================<br>
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>> >> >>>> gnso-rpm-wg mailing list<br>
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>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> gnso-rpm-wg mailing list<br>
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>> ><br>
>> ><br>
><br>
><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rpm-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg</a></blockquote></div></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p><div><p style="text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a></a></span><b style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#002e62">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">C: 917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>Phone-to-Skype: </span><font color="#000000" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px">646-845-9428<br></span></font><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:0in" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p><p style="font-size:12.8px;text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>