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<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email. The MP3, Adobe Connect recording and Adobe Connect chat below
for the Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs)<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span>PDP Working Group call held Thursday, 03 August 2017at 03:00 UTC. Attendance of the call is posted on agenda wiki page:<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></span><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/vQchB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">https://community.icann.org/x/vQchB</a></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; line-height: 15.6pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">MP3:</span></b><span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span><a href="http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-rpm-review-03aug17-en.mp3" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-rpm-review-03aug17-en.mp3</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
<span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Adobe Connect recording: </span></b></span><a href="https://participate.icann.org/p1uab0xtj78/" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">https://participate.icann.org/p1uab0xtj78/</a></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; line-height: 15.6pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:</span><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar" style="color: purple;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Mailing list archives: </span><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/" style="color: purple;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Wiki page: </span><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/vQchB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">https://community.icann.org/x/vQchB</a></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Michelle <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: -webkit-standard; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><u><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Adobe Connect chat transcript for 03 August 2017:</span></u></b></p>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;">Michelle DeSmyter:Dear All, Welcome to the Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group meeting on Thursday, 03 August 2017 at 03:00 UTC.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda wiki page: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_vQchB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=jPXSWGy4AqxnG89qR4ylNufbIAc-NXhsx8t5SPuA5sU&s=vkJWhCNECu0GseE212Lmb7nr3CWnwntVjmfCrp57Q8o&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_vQchB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=jPXSWGy4AqxnG89qR4ylNufbIAc-NXhsx8t5SPuA5sU&s=vkJWhCNECu0GseE212Lmb7nr3CWnwntVjmfCrp57Q8o&e=</a></div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Hi folks.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michelle DeSmyter:Hi there George! </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Hi Michelle. How are you?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michelle DeSmyter:Very well, thank you :)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:hello</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Welcome, Jonathan.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:Thanks :)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:It'll be interesting to see if we get more Asia/Pacific folks on today's call, given the better time slot.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Hooray Asia-Pac timezone friendly - hello everyone!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:I'm impressed that Petter is here at this hour! Any other Euro participants today?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Hi Heather.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:5 am in Sweden!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Hello all, as a former resident of Asia-Pac region I can well understand Heather's happiness</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:You also have my admiration, George!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:I am also happy it is at 11am my time...</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Thanks Mary</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:11pm here in DC</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:Is anyone speaking yet?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Thanks, Steve.... 11 pm isn't that bad. :-)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:not yet Jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:(I'm not in Sweden, but Petter is)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Mary just said a few minutes</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> j. Scott:I am on the line.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:Oh! I thought you were also in Sweden, George!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello all</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Nahhh, just Toronto here.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Hi Maxim.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):6 am</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):will not be able to use mic, will use chat window</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Are we discussing these without looking at the data?? </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:(a bit puzzled here)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Amr Elsadr:@George: There were no data requirements identified for the preamble question.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:I will ask the same question I always ask. According to this group, what do we believe is the intended purpose of the Sunrise?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:For clarity, are we still commenting on the structure of the question or seeking to give answers?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Michael, I believe it is to provide at least initial answers - possibly with a view to revisiting or fleshing out when we have more data or when we get to the end of this review</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:+1 Jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):+1 Jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Jeff, that is one of the purposes of having this initial discussion - to get WG agreement on these fundamental questions.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@George, can you point us toward the data you rely on to state that a significant percentage of sunrise registrations are the result of gaming? Also, what are you calling "gaming"?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):NOTE: was the cost was the part of the intended purpose? </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:That assumes that the sunrise registrant is the only legitimate registrant, a false assumption for commonly used terms (like HOTELS, THE, etc.).</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Sunrise does not assume that at all.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: when there are only an avg of 130 sunrises per TLD, 10 to 20 gamed ones is a significant fraction.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Where do you get the idea there are 10-20 gamed registrations on average?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Why do we belive that the low cost was the part of the sunrise purpose?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: anecdotally, from the domain blogs that have tracked all the sunrises.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Historically sunrises were not about low price (even before TMCH creation)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:My understanding is that the Sunrise Dispute resolution policy is to resolve disputes for when there is more than one application for the same domain.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):+1 WMichael</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@George, links please. Also, those blogs tend not to be neutral reporters. Again, what are you calling "gaming".</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: read the mailing list, those links have been sent before.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Not necessarily to challenge the registration of a Sunrise domain by a certain applicant</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:+1 Jeff re opportunity, not guarantee</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:I've read every email on this list.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Greg, in Russia, small company selling drills, came to TMCH with the equivalent of word "we" in russian</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:If you want too make claims, back them up.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:From the Applicant Guidebook: The proposed SDRP must allow challenges based on at least the following fourgrounds: (i) at time the challenged domain name was registered, the registrant
didnot hold a trademark registration of national effect (or regional effect) or thetrademark had not been court-validated or protected by statute or treaty; (ii) thedomain name is not identical to the mark on which the registrant based its Sunriseregistration;
(iii) the trademark registration on which the registrant based its Sunriseregistration is not of national effect (or regional effect) or the trademark had notbeen court-validated or protected by statute or treaty; or (iv) the trademarkregistration on which
the domain name registrant based its Sunrise registration didnot issue on or before the effective date of the Registry Agreement and was notapplied for on or before ICANN announced the applications received.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Maxim, was that the trademark they used to sell drills?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: those claims have been backed up. I won't constantly repeat myself, when it has already been posted.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Thank you Kristine.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):no, it was one of the trademarks they used to participate in sunrises</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):they also obtained quite many domains with generic terms</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:No need to repeat yourself, George, you can send them to me offlist.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: that would be repeating myself.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:So you're telling me and everyone for the group to go fish for your "proof." Thanks for the help.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:If it is helpful - in the Protecting the Rights of Others Working Group that was part of the 2005-7 GNSO PDP on New gTLDs, this was the definition offered for Sunrise: "A process in which owners of Legal
Rights have the opportunity toregister domain names before the Landrush process open to the public."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: you're saying the blogs where "THE" was discussed hasn't been posted to the mailing list already?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Use a search engine for your email.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Helpful, thanks Mary</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:George, I do.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Phil Marano:It would be interesting to hear from contracted parties their views on how sunrise may mitigate legal risk or related costs, at a minimum at least potentially decreasing the number of demand letters,
takedown letters, subpoenas or legal actions (without respect to the merits of those actions for the moment) by providing trademark owners some priority to defensively register domain names. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I can not use mic, and a contracted party</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> j. Scott:maxim. Sorry to hear that. If you will type a statement I will read it</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@George, those blogs do not in any way demonstrate that 10-12 sunrise registrations were "gamed" on average. As a matter of fact, I've already refuted much of what was in those blog posts.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I am not sure that the cost was the part of the sunrise purpose, at least it was not in AGB. Historically Sunrises were not about low price.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:So, Greg, you're saying there *are* blog posts, after all? And they were posted to the list? :-) And I didn't have to post them, because they already were posted on the list? :-)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):And contracted parties (new ones) relayed on AGB and existing policies when became Applicants, and later Registries.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Sara Bockey:very distorted</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Lots of noise (perhaps turn off speaker).</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:I'm sorry, can you slow down?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Apologies. I struggle with being heard when I'm home. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Yes, thanks, J. Scott. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:My point was that, to Phil, we might not get good info on *why* new gTLD registries participated because it's wasn't voluntary, even if we would have done it on our own.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:I think we can agree that the PURPOSE of sunrise was not pricing. Sunrise was primarily, as I recall, requested by the IPC.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Yet, when I've brought up the topic of examining the TMCH fees, folks roll their eyes......hmmmm.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:(likely huge profits by the TMCH operator, given their monopoly)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:+1 Kristine</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:The TMCH fees aren't necessarily as exorbitant as the individual Sunrise prices.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Though it doesn't protect everyone with an interest: if you just own a hotel, you can't participate in Sunrise for HOTEL</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:@George, the TMCH fees a different fee from Sunrise fees.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:George, I never said they didn't exist, or that they weren't posted. I thought you were referring to other blogs, since the ones you posted didn't prove your point. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:the brand owners don't like the per-domain sunrise registration fees.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: in your opinion.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@George: and yours.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:It seems to have proved the point in other people's views, given there's a proposal on the table to eliminate the sunrises.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:That was the intention of the TMCH or are we considering those together?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:To Jeff's point, not that the STI itself is binding, but as reference, this is what it says: There is a consensus3 among the members of STI that though this was not a rightsprotection
mechanism, the creation of a Trademark Clearinghouse (TC) to be operatedby an arms-length contractor, would be a beneficial implementation tool for rightsprotection mechanisms, such as sunrise or TM Claims, and therefore should be includedin the New GTLD program,
except as indicated below. The STI recognizes that aTrademark Clearinghouse could serve as a convenient location to store registeredtrademark information in a centralized location on behalf of trademark holders, and couldcreate efficiencies for trademark owners,
as well as registries which will benefit fromhaving one centralized database from which to interact to obtain the necessarytrademark information to support its pre-launch rights protections mechanisms</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:That's your proposal George. I'm not surprised you convinced yourself. And I question whether that is "on the table."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@Rebecca, are your referring to a Sunrise for the .HOTEL gTLD?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Greg: no, that's the EFF member's(Jeremy) proposal. Keep trying, you might get something correct tonight, though. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:(copy paste from PDF removes formatting, sorry)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:I believe it may actually have been Kurt Pritz's proposal.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:I'll take my batting average over yours. And you've made that proposal often enough. Don't be shy.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:I agree with Jeff </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:low audio</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Can't hear Steve?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Steve, those are questions 4 and 5. :) You're getting ahead of us.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Just adding some data to Jeff’s helpful historical context: Three of the four new gTLDs created in the first ‘proof of concept’ expansion round (.info, .name and .pro) that launched with a sunrise
based eligibility in the sunrise period on ownership of trademark rights. The fourth, coop, used different criteria, for obvious reasons.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:Sorry about the audio</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:I agree with that</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:And that's where Steve's reminder for balance and relative harms comes in.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:I agree with what J. Scott just said</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:I can live with J. Scott's version, in the language of the poll</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):also making prices low will not help brand owners, those whose business is not only selling domains</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Also support J Scott's summary.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:I also agree with J. Scott</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Yes to both.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:I think price gouging is one of those unintended consequences.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Though it occurred only in a small minority of gTLDs.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Yes, agree with J. Scott and Mary. Can we put in a reference to the AGB clauses mentioned by Kristine to the first bulleted question so we all know what "intended purpose" is once and for all.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Scott Austin:+1 J.Scott.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:This question is merely asking "is it", we address what those cases of abuse are in later questions.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Phil Marano:Agree that circumvention of sunrise through pricing can be considered an unintended effect.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Some of the TMs that were registered back for the .EU sunrise gaming are likely still alive, so creation date of TM isn't a good test.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:Part of the problem has always been with having different systems of trademark law around the world</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Very true, Jeff.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:Not sure we culd ever solve that, but the difference between those that do substantive review and those that do not, has alays been a problem</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:What's the question?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Ok.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Noting for everyone that Heather Costelloe is observing today </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:I think the main issue I found was that the requirements for proof of use were different in a few cases from what the patent office would require and what the TMCH requires.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Produced by Stoller?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Is there any way we can establish if the requirements set by TMCH with respect to proof of use is being applied consistently?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Sound died?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> j. Scott:I seem to have lost audio. Can you hear me?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:yes</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:I hear you jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:I can hear Jeff.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):yes</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Louise Marie Hurel:yes</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Can't hear you J Scott</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Yes, produced by Stoller. He sent it along with his "settlement agreement," so I could sign it and send it back right away.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Scott Austin:Iin addition to THE, I was also told of the abuse of the acceptance of single character trademarks, including 12578wxy, not only listed in the TMCH but verified for “Proof of Use” to trade during
Sunrise</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):for example, in the Russian Federation it is not possible to get domain apple out of hands of the company which sells apples via internet (for few years) and has a TM for that</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):in the court</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Plectrums, for the .EU sunrises.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> j. Scott:I am back and I hear Mary</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Scott Austin:Benelux was where THE was registered.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:Thanks, J Scott - handing back over to you!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:But, the TMCH provider was supposed to go further, i.e. the "use" requirement was supposed to correct for those differences between countries.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:i.e. only the ones that pass the "use" test get sunrise privileges.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:"Do the individuals that undergo the validation of proof of use at the TMCH posess some qualification/training or do they merely follow established guidelines?" Is that a question worth asking?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Without the TMCH materials being public, there's no accountability as to the specimens of use, etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Proof of use does appear in the USPTO TM files, which the public can inspect.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Petter Rindforth:+ Rebecca</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Mary I might characterize my comments differently: (1) substantive review generally is distinct from (2) specimen of use; once you require a specimen of use, though, you could also require (3)
evidence of commercial use</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:We can create accountability methods that don't rely on "outing". the database.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Rebecca, noted and thanks.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:Proof of use in the Trademark registry is a concept not existing outside the US</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Sorry, I'm tired, but another way to say it might be: even countries w/o substantive examination generally have a use requirement at some point in the life of the TM, and we could look to a use
requirement</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:All, if it helps, this is what the Explanatory Memorandum said when the proof of use requirement was introduced: "Proof of use from all registered trademark holders is intended tohelp ensure that all registered
trademarks receiving the same type ofadvantage from a particular RPM are evaluated at substantially the same level.In other words, all registered trademarks are treated equally."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:@Rebecca, most do not - the trademarks are subject to cancellation/revocation if they are not used.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):unfortunately it is not possible to distinguish business with the single model made on the stage of startup from the company trying to game the TMCH via single use items (one create, one sold,
one sent to someone)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Right, Jonathan, that's what I'm saying</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:The burden of showing nonuse may differ</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:but the point is: when someone asks, at some point you have to show use</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:yes, but if there is no challenge the TM doesnt have to show use</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:What would "commercial use" mean in the context of non-profits? Just for clarity. </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Right, but the question is whether we can think of something that a TM owner in any jurisdiction should be able to satisfy</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Substantive examination, no; commercial use, possibly</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Phil Marano:The TMCH is already requiring appropriate minimum forms of use given the myriad methods made available to challenge any spurious sunrise registration, TMCH record, or underlying national registration.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:my view is that substantive examination should be sufficient</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Rebecca, it seems that your point is what the Board was trying to get at when introducing the proof of use requirement</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Perhaps proof of use might include affidavits by N customers, e.g. N = 3, etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:And those customers might be tested for gaming (e.g. if the only "sales" were to family members or relatives, that's probably fake use)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Customers are already required to submit affidavits, I believe.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Statement of Proof of Use</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@George, I am not sure that repelling strartup companies is going to be an intended effect</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:"Bona Fide" use.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:@Michael: not customers of the TMCH provider, but customers of the TM holder (i.e. folks who bought the goods/services in question)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Agree that proof of use needs work</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:At the risk of disrupting the kumbaya moments....is there really a significant enough set of abuses to try to make the use requirement MORE stringent?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:I would like to hear from the TMCH as to what standards they used</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Yes, if the sunrise continues (I support Jeremy's proposal to simply eliminate the Sunrise, though).</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:+1 @Jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jeff Neuman:And what evidence of abuse actually exists</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:There is gaming....all the RPMs are gamed. How many gamers are we going to shut down with changes?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Start-ups might get $$ from friends and family, but hopefully their sales are beyond that circle.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):+1 Jeff</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:My mike is not working</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Phil Marano:No, just improve the challenge mechanisms.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:I keep hearing the same 3 examples....</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:I agree with Jeff. I'd like to hear more about the guidelines and qualified individuals that undergo these checks.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:I'm only seeing 5 green checks</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Kristine, I'll happily put the top 10 entries we know about into the hopper of examples</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Jeff, Deloitte has this to say about verifying use: "that evidences an effort on behalf of the trademark holder to communicate to a consumer so that the consumer can distinguish the product or services
of one from those of another."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:I wanted to say that use is a delicate one</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:That sounds more like a specimen of use/use as a TM rather than as ornamental requirement</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:On this question (documentation of abuse) perhaps Mary can answer - was any data taken in the staff review?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:@Rebecca, I think that would help, but even 10 seems really really low.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:There has got to be a threshold for crappy behavior that it's not worth it to address...</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Thank you, Mary, that would help answer my earlier question.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:It's more than that, Kristine. e.g. see: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__domainnamewire.com_2014_01_30_the-2Dnumbers-2Dare-2Din-2Ddonuts-2Dsunrises-2Dtypically-2Dget-2D100-2Ddomains-2Dbut-2Dthey-2Dalso-2Dgot-2Dgamed_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=jPXSWGy4AqxnG89qR4ylNufbIAc-NXhsx8t5SPuA5sU&s=NW7DCcLoaNp6NuRoyZEEIguDfJsBmwnr_FxAZNBE3pQ&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__domainnamewire.com_2014_01_30_the-2Dnumbers-2Dare-2Din-2Ddonuts-2Dsunrises-2Dtypically-2Dget-2D100-2Ddomains-2Dbut-2Dthey-2Dalso-2Dgot-2Dgamed_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=jPXSWGy4AqxnG89qR4ylNufbIAc-NXhsx8t5SPuA5sU&s=NW7DCcLoaNp6NuRoyZEEIguDfJsBmwnr_FxAZNBE3pQ&e=</a></div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Scott Austin:But a should a self-serving affidavit be sufficient to overcome descriptiveness or allow a common term to be registered in the TMCH</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:@Heather, I don't believe there was a specific data collection effort other than community input, but we will check and confirm.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Thanks, Mary</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Does abuse of the Sunrisses Period entail the premium names of trademarks by the Registry or do we cover that in another question?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Remember, that's the 10 most popular--a greater effect than marks that no one ever attempts to register</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:+1 Greg- sufficiently questionable to clarify the intended meaning</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:I agree with Greg. We need clarification on who the audience of this is.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:+1 Greg</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:+1 Greg</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:I did not catch the ambiguity that Greg did but see it now</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Oh, interesting. Maybe we need to ask both questions....</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Ok, so we cover the premium namees aspect in question 3. So that would not qualify for abuse here.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Most bona fide trademark owners are also registrants, with some having very large portfolios of registrations.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:Abuses of sunrise specifically?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:I don't remember that from the study, but I read it a way back</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Rebecca L Tushnet:(the INTA study)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):if we define abuse as a violation of rules - no</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:"preambulatory" -- excellent.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Are there registries/registrars on the call?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Right, based on Lori's reply, can leave questions are they are. Thanks, Lori.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I think the correct way is via RySG / RrSG</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:You are welcome Justine.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Intent behind the rules, exactly.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):but if we see it via stretchin the rules , yes</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Could we request RySG/RrSG to send answers as Registries/Registrars ?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):but next monday (few days) is bit unrealistic as expectation of response during summber</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Mary Wong:Got it, will do, J Scott</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:Abuses could mean different things to different people/groups. Someone should be examining all documented abuses to determine level .</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Mary , could you read out my suggestion about RySG/RrSG?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Maxim, I suggest we just take that back to our our SG.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Are we doing Q1?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:("if time permits" as per the agenda)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:@Justine, we do need "abuse cases."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:Sorry I missed most of the discussion but I am glad that I could chime in.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:"ab-use cases."</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Apologies in advance, I likely won't be able to join for the next rotation, which is in the red zone time in Tasmania.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Justine Chew:@Greg, yes we do need those cases, whoever is documenting them.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:I think if people show up with abuse stories then we listen. We can decide if they are actually abuse.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:+ Heather...</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:It's only summer in the northern hemisphere </div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:+1...</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:hehee</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Good point Heather and many of us were just in Jo'burg</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:Agree with Kristine. We should hear what people consider abuse and then determine if it is or if within bounds.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:Yes, it's 12:09 am here.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:And Winter in Australia....</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Why not start on Question 1, to use the final 20 mins?</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:(i.e. to keep the train going)</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Steve Levy:Thanks all. Speak with you next week!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Jonathan Agmon:Thank you all</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry:Good night/morning/afternoon!!</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> David McAuley:Thanks all, good bye</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Heather Forrest:Thanks, J Scott</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> George Kirikos:Bye folks.</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:Thank you J Scott for keeping the trains running</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:UK/Europe try to go back to sleep....</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Michael Flemming:Thanks</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Lori Schulman:ciao</div>
<div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> Greg Shatan:Night, all!</div>
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