<div dir="ltr"><div>Georges, Paul, Rebecca, all,</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for sharing these views, which I find very helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>As a footnote, I think Georges mentions some really good ideas we that should consider adding to our list of questions on this topic.</div><div><br></div><div>In terms of the points that Paul and Rebecca mention here, I completely agree that data collection/analysis should be a fundamental aspect of our work. As Georges describes, it is much more straightforward to collect and analyze data that is objective in form, e.g. how <span style="font-size:12.8px">many URS cases/domains have been commenced; the fees or monetary costs imposed; the amount of time allocated for various procedural aspects of the mechanism, and the ultimate status of the domains under adjudication. Collectively this information can help us draw certain inferences about how the procedure is working and guide us in identifying ways to enhance the overall utility of the mechanism from the perspective of all parties to the case.</span><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">As we know, w</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">hile having data can be extremely valuable. there is the associated challenge of obtaining the information. C</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">onsider what we went through for our data collection exercise on TM Claims and Sunrise. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">In fact, not having sufficient data (even objective data elements) has been a reoccurring theme throughout ICANN since its inception, including for the Competition, Consumer Trust and Consumer Choice - Review Team which highlighted this very concern in its draft Report, see: <a href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/cct-recs-2017-11-27-en">https://www.icann.org/public-comments/cct-recs-2017-11-27-en</a></span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">So I think this issue has plagued the community for a long time and even within this PDP I've noticed its been a challenge from the start. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">When the idea of undertaking a qualitative review of the evidentiary standard in URS cases was first proposed, one of the practical concerns identified in response is: we do not have access to the underlying evidence and pleadings - which serve as the basis for the application of the "clear and convincing" standard in any given case. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Absent access to those resources, I'm unclear on how such a review of a statistically relevant number of cases can be accomplished. This may simply be a practical constraint, but from my perspective, it is a gating-issue that requires resolution in order to assess whether that type of review is even possible under these circumstances.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Best regards,</span><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Claudio</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:16 PM, Paul Keating <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul@law.es" target="_blank">paul@law.es</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Reviewing anything leads to subjective results unless what your reviewing is a math,atic formula or repetitive science experiment. That is not a reason to not do it.<br><br><div id="m_2128433810952795318AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 8 Feb 2018, at 23:14, Nahitchevansky, Georges <<a href="mailto:ghn@kilpatricktownsend.com" target="_blank">ghn@kilpatricktownsend.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div class="m_2128433810952795318WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_2128433810952795318__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with Claudio that these kinds of case reviews can get subjective and, as such, are not of much use. On the question of passive holding, I
do note that there is a fairly established standard of factors that are considered for passive holding cases, as follows:
<span style="background:#fafafa"> (i) the degree of distinctiveness or reputation of the complainant’s mark, (ii) the failure of the respondent to submit a response or to provide any evidence of actual or contemplated good-faith use, (iii) the respondent’s
concealing its identity or use of false contact details (noted to be in breach of its registration agreement), and (iv) the implausibility of any good faith use to which the domain name may be put. Given that the URS has a higher standard of proof, I would
expect that a ruling on such would have fairly solid evidence to support the majority of the factors. The fact that a panelist might not have written an extensive decision does not mean that these factors were not considered, were incorrectly ruled on or
that no evidence was submitted. All it means is that in that one case the panelist did not write a very detailed decision. That happens in court cases all the time. Lower courts and Appellate courts often get extensive briefing and oral arguments and then
issue a simple decision. So I do not find the fact that there may be some URS decisions that are short on explanation as signaling some major flaw in the system – particularly as there has never been a requirement that decisions cover all bells and whistles.
Perhaps what the review should focus on is whether or not the decision contains a rational
</span><span class="m_2128433810952795318Style1Char"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(e.g.,
</span></span><span style="background:#fafafa">does the decision simply say Complainant or Respondent wins or is there some description of what is involved and some explanation why Complainant or Respondent prevails on the enumerated factors. In addition,
the problem I have with the case selections some folks are engaged in is that someone will point to a handful of cases they believe should have had more detail to make a general argument of some sort of grave harm. For those who love statistics and sample
sizes, its seems to me that pointing to a handful of cases out of hundreds of cases is a non-significant sample size. So to be clear, I do not support a review of the merits or substantive aspects of cases decided as this will just end up being an endless
subjective debate. The review I would support is simply to see whether the cases include some rationale or none whatsoever – and whether there is an issue or not (i.e., are we talking a dozen cases with no explanation or hundreds of case with no explanation).
As to personal academic reviews of case decisions, such as the one being undertaken by Rebecca (which will not be based on what was actually filed and argued), I have no problem with such a review being conducted by Rebecca and her research assistants as part
of their own work at their university. But, to be clear, that work is not the work of the working group and should be no more than another data input for the working group to consider along with any number of other studies, articles, surveys etc that might
have already been conducted or which are in the works regarding the URS. </span><u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Georges Nahitchevansky
</span></b></span><span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></span><span><span style="color:#1f497d">
<br>
</span></span><span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray">Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP</span></b></span><span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"> <br>
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</span></span><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<span></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> gnso-rpm-wg [<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>claudio di gangi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Keating <<a href="mailto:Paul@law.es" target="_blank">Paul@law.es</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items from 07 February Working Group Call<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A relevant inquiry from this might be what evidence is necessary for the complainant to establish "passive holding" of the domain under the URS 'clear and convincing' vs. UDRP 'preponderance of the evidence' standards?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Preponderance of the evidence is usually interpreted as 'more likely than not', while clear and convincing can be understood as 'substantially more likely than not'.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When you are dealing with a domain name that does not resolve to an active website, e.g. "passive holding" - there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for argument. And even if we had access to the pleadings and evidence, this is ultimately
a subjective determination where reasonable minds can see things differently. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So I don't really see how a case review by this WG can add much to the equation, but if anyone has views on that please share for discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Claudio<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:01 AM Paul Keating <<a href="mailto:Paul@law.es" target="_blank">Paul@law.es</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Brian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I do not see how the extraction of data can be linked to an "<span style="background:white">attempt to rewrite a well-established domain name law doctrine established in thousands of UDRP cases
and now being applied in the URS context”. Data is data. The goal is to determine IF in fact the doctrine is in fact being applied. This is certainly within the ambit of this WG and as a representative of WIPO such an undertaking should not be of concern.
You certainly believe that the WIPO panelists correctly apply the rules and WIPO goes to great lengths to ensure that panelists are properly educated. Unfortunately other ADR providers do not have such a track record. </span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;background:#fffefe">Be well,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;background:#fffefe">Paul</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">gnso-rpm-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><wbr>> on behalf of "BECKHAM, Brian" <<a href="mailto:brian.beckham@wipo.int" target="_blank">brian.beckham@wipo.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 12:52 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Julie Hedlund <<a href="mailto:julie.hedlund@icann.org" target="_blank">julie.hedlund@icann.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items from 07 February Working Group Call<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks Julie,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">As to the call for input in the next 48 hours, based inter alia on arguments raised on last night's call, my own view is that it does not seem productive
for staff -- at present -- to proceed (or continue) with URS data extraction.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Before time and precious resources are spent on data extraction (not to mention analysis), there should be agreement from WG members as to what should be
extracted and to what end, e.g., producing a recommendation as to the minimum elements a URS determination should include. As to that particular end however, frankly, it should be possible to already agree on such elements now (several have already been mentioned
on the last two calls, such as the trademark at issue and domain name use).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">An email from George Kirikos perfectly underscores the reason for some of the arguments raised on the last several calls; there, he said:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">"It's possible that the first URS was wrongly decided using the basis of "non-use" as proof of "bad faith use" (which the 2nd URS correctly rejected), but
we don't know for sure given the lack of any detail/reasoning in the first URS decision."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">On the one hand, this is merely one view as to whether a URS case was decided correctly, to which there may very well be a counter view.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">On the other hand, and I think this gets to the concerns being raised, it is effectively an attempt to rewrite a well-established domain name law doctrine
established in thousands of UDRP cases and now being applied in the URS context -- and yet ostensiblythis flows from assessing whether a panel correctly applied the burden of proof. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks for considering,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Brian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> gnso-rpm-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><wbr>>
on behalf of Julie Hedlund <<a href="mailto:julie.hedlund@icann.org" target="_blank">julie.hedlund@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [gnso-rpm-wg] Action Items from 07 February Working Group Call</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<a name="m_2128433810952795318_m_3691965020869060650__MailOriginalBody"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Dear All,
</span></a><span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">The action items noted by staff from the Working Group call held on 07 February 2018 (1800 UTC) are as follows.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#212121;background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Staff to recirculate the latest version of the Compilation of Current URS Discussion Documents (see attached the latest version which was updated from the meeting on 01 February);
<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#212121;background:white">
<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">NEXT 48 HOURS</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">: Staff seeks direction from the Working Group on whether they should proceed with data extraction for all URS cases, some URS cases, or
no URS cases. If some URS cases, then staff can extract data based on specific data elements to be agreed by the Working Group (e.g. types of cases for which such data extraction is deemed needed).<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Staff have posted to the wiki space the action items and notes. <i>Please note that these will be high-level notes and are not meant as a substitute for the transcript or recording.</i>
The recording, transcript, Adobe Connect chat, and attendance records are posted on the wiki.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Best Regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Julie</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Julie Hedlund, Policy Director</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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