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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose">Thanks for the feedback.<o:p></o:p></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">Again, while I have been stating personal views I don’t see how any analysis, which would likely show that some percentage of the domains targeted by LEA might have been subject to a UDRP or URS,
would be relevant to our Charter mission, which is “the overarching issue as to whether or not all the RPMs collectively fulfill the purposes for which they were created, or whether<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">additional policy recommendations are needed, including to clarify and unify the policy goals”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Philip S. Corwin<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Policy Counsel<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">VeriSign, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">12061 Bluemont Way<br>
Reston, VA 20190<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">703-948-4648/Direct<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">571-342-7489/Cell<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><i><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey<o:p></o:p></span></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Tattersfield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 05, 2019 6:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nahitchevansky, Georges <ghn@kilpatricktownsend.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Corwin, Philip via GNSO-RPM-WG <gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt">I agree Georges. I also feel any additional time would be better spent considering some of the individual proposals prior to the publishing of the initial report. Given participation in the two
new subgroups is quite light, would there be any support for running a 3<sup>rd</sup> concurrent subgroup to review the individual proposals?<br>
<br>
Aside: IndianHotels.com was nicely articulated, good to see.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 10:19 PM Nahitchevansky, Georges <<a href="mailto:ghn@kilpatricktownsend.com">ghn@kilpatricktownsend.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I fully agree with Paul. I really do not see the relevance. Even you had a list you would have very little details on the underlying situation and facts involved. More importantly, and as Paul notes, this is
a completely different process that is involved and has nothing to do with the URS or UDRP process. To be sure, these governmental seizures typically involve fairly significant situations involving counterfeiting, criminal activity such as sales of illegal
substances, illicit gambling, fraud, prostitution etc., terrorism and other nefarious acts. The UK, for example, recently seized 30,000 plus .uk related domains. These were apparently part of a sting involving criminal activity of significance. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:paul@law.es" target="_blank">paul@law.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> January 5, 2019 8:54 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:mitch@eff.org" target="_blank">mitch@eff.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="gmail-m_-3715611962013992215subject">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I am not sure I understand the relevance of investigating other non-UDRP enforcement activities and how the “list” would
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Benefit the group - outside of curiosity. These are independent of the UDRP process (just as any other legal proceedings are). Although the laws regarding confiscation are obtuse (to say the least) and slanted in
favor of the governmental authority (at least in the US) I still am not seeing how this might impact our work. While it is true that trademark owners may seek relief via the ICE process that is really no different that a group of trademark owners seeking assistance
from the FBI. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-3715611962013992215AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Sent from the road. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><br>
On 2 Jan 2019, at 20:02, Mitch Stoltz <<a href="mailto:mitch@eff.org" target="_blank">mitch@eff.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I disagree—more information about these seizures could absolutely inform our work. It would be useful to know what percentage of those million-plus domain names were seized for reasons relating to trademark infringement
in the domain name itself versus some objectionable content in the website, and whether the claims actually relate to trademark or copyright. Knowing whether ICE seizures are in fact addressing some of the same conduct as the ICANN RPMs, and what if any due
process is being afforded, will provide an important basis of comparison, because the RPMs don't operate in a vacuum.<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style="background:white">Mitch Stoltz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Senior Staff Attorney, EFF | <a href="tel:4154369333,142" target="_blank">415-436-9333 x142</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="https://www.eff.org/donate" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/donate</a> | <a href="https://act.eff.org/" target="_blank">https://act.eff.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On 1/2/19 9:58 AM, Jonathan Frost via GNSO-RPM-WG wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think Phil has a good point here. Without a meaningful way to distinguish why exactly each domain was seized, the data would not be very useful beyond the mere knowledge that local governments are enforcing local
IP laws. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:47 PM Corwin, Philip via GNSO-RPM-WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Aside from the daunting challenge of analyzing a list of more than one million domain names, if such a list could be assembled I'm not sure it could inform our work in any meaningful way.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The new gTLD RPMs are focused on preventing and responding to a very narrow type of trademark infringement -- cybersquatting where the domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark, where the registrant has no legitimate interest in the DN
and the domain is being used in bad faith to infringe trademark.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
While some of the seized domains referenced in the ICE press release may have met that test, many (likely the majority) probably did not, as the release makes clear that the primary focus was not the domain name but the sale/distribution of counterfeit goods
and copyright-infringing material --<br>
<br>
More than 1 million copyright-infringing website domain names selling counterfeit automotive parts, electrical components, personal care items and other fake goods were criminally and civilly seized in the past year through the
combined efforts of law- enforcement agencies across the world, high-profile industry representatives and anti-counterfeiting associations... The IPR Center, which stands at the forefront of the U.S. government's response
to IP theft, worked directly with key international law- enforcement authorities and industry organizations representing the electronics sector, luxury brand-name designers, film and entertainment and several entities specializing in apparel
and accessories through the major enforcement effort.... Investigations led by HSI resulted in the removal of copyright-infringing websites that sold counterfeit airbags and integrated sensors, both co<br>
mmodities that present a potential safety hazard. An investigation based in Louisiana led to the seizure of five website domain names - including
<a href="http://Chinaseatbelt.com" target="_blank">Chinaseatbelt.com</a>; <a href="http://Airbagpart.com" target="_blank">
Airbagpart.com</a>; <a href="http://Chinasafetybelt.com" target="_blank">Chinasafetybelt.com</a>; <a href="http://Fareurope.com" target="_blank">Fareurope.com</a>; and
<a href="http://Far-europe.com" target="_blank">Far-europe.com</a> - involved in the sale of fake automotive parts. A joint case between HSI and Department of Defense investigative agencies resulted in the removal of <a href="http://PRBlogics.com" target="_blank">PRBlogics.com</a>,
a copyright-infringing website offering counterfeit integrated sensors.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
So the ICANN RPMs are focused on the "apples" of a very specific and narrow type of TM infringement that looks at domain content for evidence of bad faith use, while the government domain seizures do not focus on the domain name but the "oranges" use of the
website to distribute counterfeit goods or infringed copyrighted content.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Aside from that, assembling the domain names would likely be impossible, given that the release makes clear that the million-plus seizures is a cumulative annual tally based on actions taken by law enforcement agencies around the world.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, as the Techdirt blog states, the release is somewhat confusing in regard to what IP infringement was actually involved---<br>
<br>
Still, it seems notable that in late November, ICE proudly announced that it had seized over a million websites, though frankly, the press release raises a hell of a lot more questions than it answers. First off, it appears that ICE has no clue that copyright
and trademark are entirely different things. <br>
<br>
More than 1 million copyright-infringing website domain names selling counterfeit automotive parts, electrical components, personal care items and other fake goods were criminally and civilly seized in the past year through the combined efforts of law-enforcement
agencies across the world, high-profile industry representatives and anti-counterfeiting associations.
<br>
<br>
"Copyright infringing website domain names" already is a weird description (were the URLs themselves infringing?) but it's made even weirder by saying that these sites were seized because they were selling counterfeits. Counterfeiting is a trademark issue,
not a copyright one. Those laws are entirely different.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In conclusion, unless we are contemplating expansion of the ICANN RPMs beyond a narrow form of cybersquatting to cover sale of counterfeit goods and websites infringing copyright (a proposition for which consensus could not likely be achieved), even if the
million-plus domain names could be obtained their relationship to our work seems tangential at best.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Philip S. Corwin<br>
<br>
Policy Counsel<br>
<br>
VeriSign, Inc.<br>
<br>
12061 Bluemont Way<br>
<br>
Reston, VA 20190<br>
<br>
<a href="tel:7039484648" target="_blank">703-948-4648</a>/Direct<br>
<br>
<a href="tel:5713427489" target="_blank">571-342-7489</a>/Cell<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of George Kirikos<br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:48 AM<br>
To: gnso-rpm-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi folks,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Happy New Year.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There was news about ICE seizing over 1 million domain names, see:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/over-million-websites-seized-global-operation" target="_blank">https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/over-million-websites-seized-global-operation</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20181213/18030341224/ice-seizes-over-1-million-websites-with-no-due-process-apparently-unaware-that-copyright-trademark-are-different.shtml" target="_blank">https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20181213/18030341224/ice-seizes-over-1-million-websites-with-no-due-process-apparently-unaware-that-copyright-trademark-are-different.shtml</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I was curious whether anyone (maybe a registrar, registry, or TM holders who were involved, i.e. the "industry partners") has and can share the complete list of domain names that were seized, as that might be a potential source of data for our work.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
George Kirikos<br>
<br>
<a href="tel:4165880269" target="_blank">416-588-0269</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.leap.com/" target="_blank">http://www.leap.com/</a><br>
<br>
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