[GTLD-WG] [CPWG] EFF : Nonprofit Community Stands Together to Protect .ORG

Alexander Schubert alexander at schubert.berlin
Fri Nov 22 21:12:34 UTC 2019


Any price INCREASE up to about US $100 per year would be a POSITIVE: It
scares scalpers away.

The REAL risk we are facing is obviously the OPPOSITE:

That PIR allows freebee "creates" (first year registrations) to hike the
.org domain count. The result of such action: bad actors snatching up EVERY
single generic term based .org; and expired domains. 

 

I am not afraid of rice hikes. I am afraid of the opposite: free "creates".
These monetization sites BADLY hurt the ".org" trust with Google. We
shouldn't ask ICANN for a "price cap" - rather for a guaranteed MINIMUM reg
fee!

 

Thanks,

 

Alexander.berlin

 

 

 

 

From: GTLD-WG [mailto:gtld-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Zuck
Sent: Freitag, 22. November 2019 15:58
To: Kaili Kan <kankaili at gmail.com>; Evan Leibovitch
<evanleibovitch at gmail.com>
Cc: CPWG <cpwg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [GTLD-WG] [CPWG] EFF : Nonprofit Community Stands Together to
Protect .ORG

 

Yes, those are the same issues raised during the original discussion about
.ORG but they are still pretty specific to folks in the secondary market if
you go one layer down. I've got about a dozen .ORG domains registered which
I suspect is more than most non-profits, and I'd be fine with the price
quadrupling if it put a dent in the secondary market for confusingly
similar, snapped up and turned into porn sites and just plain expensive
domains. I've run an arts non-profit called DC Dogs for the past decade. I
found it a LOT cheaper to get the .COM than the .ORG because the .ORG was
being held by a domain investor. Several times a year, I get an email from a
broker asking if I'm ready to buy the .ORG. And THIS year, I was
breathlessly notified that there had been a HUGE price decrease so I could
now pick it up for the low low price of $7,500! Another time, I switched
from competitivetechnology.org to actonline.org and unfortunately allowed
competitivetechnology.org to lapse. It was immediately purchased and turned
into a porn site, capitalizing on the traffic WE had established so to buy
it back, I had to match the revenue it was making for the domain investor,
something close to $10k. It's a little ironic to talk about non-profit
management of .ORG when so many of the second level domains are in the hands
of the most for profit actors in the market.

 

We should also remember there are safeguards and PICs in the new contract
that legacy domains do not need to implement and we have not evaluated their
relative value to end users. As end users, we're most certainly not
automatically for limiting IP rights, for example, because of the high
correlation between infringement and malware. If we don't like the
safeguards, we have a role to play in improving them which will go a LOT
further than any reliance on someone's non-profit status to protect us.
There are PLENTY of very greedy non-profits in the world whos executives
make a great deal of money. I think the PIR CEO pay is something like $750k
so before we cry a river over their loss, let's have a real discussion about
how best to protect our interests in this.

 

All this said, I have nothing against domain investors and they are simply a
reflection of a free market (that will exist with, or without PIR) and I
myself once sold activate.com for much more than I paid for it. However, I
do not believe the internet community owes them anything and should not
concern ourselves with their interests.

 

Consequently, when they are the primary driver behind an initiative to
control pricing, we should be wary of their motives. Yes, they managed to
generate a lot of comments and yes, Nat, I'm sure those comments were
legitimately from the organizations listed but we know little of how the
problem is being described to those organizations or how shrill the rhetoric
about domain takedowns, etc. What we DO know is that domain investors are
the group with the MOST to lose here whereas doubling the price of
innovatorsnetwork.org will make a lot of cash for Ethos and not make a bit
of difference to the Innovators Network Foundation.

 

So Evan, I make no statement about the best outcome, because I have not yet
studied it and I have NO problems with strange bedfellows if we're on the
right side of something. I'm just not ready to ASSUME this is a bad
development because folks with an entirely unique stake tell me so. All I
ask is that we spend the time to discuss it.

Jonathan

 

  _____  

From: Kaili Kan <kankaili at gmail.com <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com> >
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 3:12 PM
To: Evan Leibovitch <evanleibovitch at gmail.com
<mailto:evanleibovitch at gmail.com> >
Cc: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org
<mailto:JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org> >; Dev Anand Teelucksingh
<devtee at gmail.com <mailto:devtee at gmail.com> >; CPWG <cpwg at icann.org
<mailto:cpwg at icann.org> >
Subject: Re: [CPWG] [GTLD-WG] EFF : Nonprofit Community Stands Together to
Protect .ORG 

 

After reading the letter signed by over 20 NGOs, I find it going beyond far
potential price increases.  The following are their listed concerns:

 

-- The power to raise .ORG registration fees without the approval of ICANN
or the .ORG community. A .ORG price hike would put many cash-strapped NGOs
in the difficult position of either paying the increased fees or losing the
legitimacy and brand recognition of a .ORG domain.

-- The power to develop and implement Rights Protection Mechanisms
unilaterally, without consulting the .ORG community. If such mechanisms are
not carefully crafted in collaboration with the NGO community, they risk
censoring completely legal nonprofit activities.

-- The power to implement processes to suspend domain names based on
accusations of "activity contrary to applicable law."  The .ORG registry
should not implement such processes without understanding how state actors
frequently target NGOs with allegations of illegal activity.

 

If these are true, it seems that we have even more reasons to act.

 

Kaili

 

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:56 AM Evan Leibovitch <evanleibovitch at gmail.com
<mailto:evanleibovitch at gmail.com> > wrote:

I am somewhat comforted by the observation that the Free Software Foundation
and Electronic Frontier Foundation have signed on to the site, neither of
which is associated with being corporate proxies.  

 

I share your concern about ICA. However, at various points in history we've
partnered with many different parts of the ICANN ecosystem and this time we
happen to be on the same side as an organization we often consider as an
adversary. Strange bedfellows indeed but why not? 

 

I maintain my position that PIR should be given more leeway to set prices.
That's not the issue to me. The change of PIR from nonprofit to for-profit
has far deeper implications for trust that price increases will be
reasonable and serving an interest beyond maximizing revenue. I had trust
that a nonprofit PIR would treat the removal of price caps with prudence. I
have no such confidence in a profit-maximizing PIR. 

 

___________________
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto
@evanleibovitch/@el56

 

On Fri., Nov. 22, 2019, 1:50 p.m. Jonathan Zuck,
<JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org <mailto:JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org> > wrote:

I confess I'd be interested to see who is behind this site.  The talking
points are very similar to those with which we were bombarded by ICA during
the original discussions around .ORG. Deep down, we ALL know that the only
ones truly harmed by a price increase are volume registrants. It was you who
suggested that a price hike might actually be pro-consumer. Let's not lose
site of all that because we're pissed at ISOC. Let's try to keep from being
manipulated again and do a reasoned analysis of the situation.

 

From: GTLD-WG <gtld-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<mailto:gtld-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> > on behalf of Evan
Leibovitch <evanleibovitch at gmail.com <mailto:evanleibovitch at gmail.com> >
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 1:41 PM
To: Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee at gmail.com <mailto:devtee at gmail.com> >
Cc: CPWG <cpwg at icann.org <mailto:cpwg at icann.org> >
Subject: Re: [GTLD-WG] [CPWG] EFF : Nonprofit Community Stands Together to
Protect .ORG

 

Have a look at https://savedotorg.org

Interesting list of signatories. Perhaps ALAC should endorse?

___________________
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto
@evanleibovitch/@el56

 

On Fri., Nov. 22, 2019, 1:16 p.m. Dev Anand Teelucksingh, <devtee at gmail.com
<mailto:devtee at gmail.com> > wrote:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/11/nonprofit-community-stands-together-pr
otect-org

_______________________________________________
CPWG mailing list
CPWG at icann.org <mailto:CPWG at icann.org> 
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your
personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance
with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the
website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit
the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration,
including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery
altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so
on._______________________________________________
GTLD-WG mailing list
GTLD-WG at atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:GTLD-WG at atlarge-lists.icann.org> 
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gtld-wg

Working Group direct URL:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/New+GTLDs
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your
personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance
with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the
website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit
the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration,
including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery
altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

_______________________________________________
CPWG mailing list
CPWG at icann.org <mailto:CPWG at icann.org> 
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your
personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance
with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the
website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit
the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration,
including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery
altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/gtld-wg/attachments/20191122/70b0a8ca/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
CPWG mailing list
CPWG at icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.


More information about the GTLD-WG mailing list