[Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Mats Dufberg
mats.dufberg at iis.se
Tue Jul 31 12:03:32 UTC 2018
[Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading
and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words
should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
---
Mats Dufberg
DNS Specialist, IIS
Mobile: +46 73 065 3899
https://www.iis.se/en/
-----Original Message-----
From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp>
Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27
To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg at icann.org>
Cc: "yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp>
Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your confirmation.
We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted.
We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines.
To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical
cases of Japanese language words as follows.
We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?
In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels,
we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to
be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters
are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural
expressions or daily-used input method.
As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji
characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words.
And daily-used computer input method supports such typing.
This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of
repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O".
In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the
applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of
"fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines,
"1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable
characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No".
Question for IDNGWG;
Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2. should confusable labels be blocked?
Please see the following examples.
"ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey"
"八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese
photographers "hani hajime"
These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people.
But these consist of totally different characters with different reading
and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words
should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion.
If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved
using DRP.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels
be blocked?" is "No".
Questions for IDNGWG;
Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above
example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Regards,
----
Yoshitaka Okuno
Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000
Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
>
> I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
>
> Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up
> query.
>
> Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the
> integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
>
> Regards
> Sarmad
>
>
> -----------
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
>
> The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at
> multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
>
> Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard,
> Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts.
> Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated
> Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji
> (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese
> writing system.
>
> Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases
> allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the
> Japanese writing system as well.
>
> Regards,
> IDN Guidelines WG
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM
> To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>
> Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo at icann.org>;
> idngwg at icann.org
> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
>
> Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
>
> I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM
> filter.
>
> Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
>
> We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of
> "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the
> guidelines.
>
> ===
> Guideline 15:
> For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han
> scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana,
> Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a
> single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, ....
> ===
>
> We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of
> different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state
> this concept in the guidelines.
>
> We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with
> Integration Panel members.
>
> Thanks and Regards,
>
> Yoshitaka Okuno
> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
>
> PS.
> We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in
> applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is
> needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
>
> Best Regards,
> ----
> Yoshitaka Okuno
> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
>
>
> On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000
> Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> >
> > Thank you for your response.
> >
> > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response
> > below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sarmad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM
> > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>
> > Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana
> > <pitinan.koo at icann.org>; idngwg at icann.org
> > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
> >
> > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
> >
> > Thank you for your response.
> >
> > We summarized our understanding as below.
> >
> > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad
> > could forward it to IDNGWG.
> >
> > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the
> > Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
> >
> > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as
> > "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
> >
> > Thanks again for your assistance.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > ----
> > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000
> > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> > >
> > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group
> > (IDNGWG).
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Sarmad
> > > =============
> > >
> > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co.,
> Ltd.
> > >
> > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the
> > > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple
> > > WG meetings and the means to address it.
> > >
> > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version
> > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of
> > > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r
> > > es
> > >
> > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P
> > Jp6wrc
> > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx
> > d028M4
> > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED
> > -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
> > >
> > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the
> > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script
> > > Names
> > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
> > > _r
> > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r
> > > =K
> > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm
> > > _V
> > > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.
> > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
> > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled
> > use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually
> > confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to
> > co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a
> > corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
> > >
> > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has
> > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part,
> > > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
> > >
> > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from
> the
> > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24:
> > > Unicode Script Property
> > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
> > > _r
> > >
> > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K
> > TETvEa
> > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-
> > wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=).
> > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
> > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled
> > use of multiple Unicode scripts.
> > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
> > >
> > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of
> Unicode
> > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must
> > > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code
> > > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly
> > > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional
> Note IV.
> > >
> > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members,
> > > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without
> > > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as
> > > per the details
> > > below:
> > >
> > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG
> > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in
> > > Guideline 16.
> > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be
> > ambiguous
> > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as
> > > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the
> > > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24.
> > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing
> > system
> > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the
> > > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes
> > > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As
> > > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed
> > > that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the
> guideline.
> > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a
> > known
> > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes
> > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII.
> > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen
> > > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively
> > > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the
> Additional
> > > Notes
> > V
> > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode
> > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
> > >
> > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call
> > > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically
> > > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed
> > > cross-script
> > cases.
> > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these
> > > guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional
> > > mechanisms for this purpose.
> > >
> > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried
> > > to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any
> > > further input or concerns.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > IDN Guidelines WG
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM
> > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg at iis.se>
> > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>; Pitinan
> > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo at icann.org>
> > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
> > >
> > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair,
> > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
> > >
> > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN
> > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in
> > > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For
> > > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from
> you.
> > >
> > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the
> > > IDN Guidelines"
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n
> > > ew
> > > s_anno
> > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb
> > > PS
> > > S6sJms
> > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW
> > > 1P
> > > mY1jJ5
> > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ
> > > Le
> > > g&e=
> > > was published.
> > >
> > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior
> > > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
> > >
> > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co.,
> Ltd.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900
> > > yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp wrote:
> > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group,
> > > >
> > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal.
> > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your
> > > > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
> > > >
> > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by
> > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this may be of help to you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Summary]
> > > >
> > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually
> confusable
> > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of
> > > > multiple scripts.
> > > >
> > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases
> > > > stated in Guideline#15.
> > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a
> > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and
> > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in
> > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective
> > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE
> > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English
> > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE
> > > > script.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is
> > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same
> > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain
> > > > labels.
> > > >
> > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable
> > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because
> > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
> > > >
> > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable
> > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and
> > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think
> > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in
> > > > guideline#16.
> > > >
> > > > [Suggestion]
> > > >
> > > > We would like to propose as follows.
> > > >
> > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to
> > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section
> > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
> > > >
> > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
> > > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > 16.
> > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single
> > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly
> > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion
> > > > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > -
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your consideration.
> > > > ----
> > > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services
> > > > Co., Ltd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0
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>
>
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