[Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Sarmad Hussain
sarmad.hussain at icann.org
Mon Sep 3 04:21:50 UTC 2018
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
(cc: IDNGWG)
We acknowledge your response below.
Regards,
Sarmad
-----Original Message-----
From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp>
Sent: Monday, September 3, 2018 9:16 AM
To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>
Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp; idngwg at icann.org
Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response and your time to resolve this issue.
We are happy in reading IDNGWG's response that is in line with our intended
registration policy, in which confusable registrations are resolved via DRP.
We hope the implementation of the guidelines properly follow the IDNGWG's
response - reading
The guideline ... allows for the registries to resolve such
cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution
Process (DRP).
Regards,
----
Yoshitaka Okuno
Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 16:18:05 +0000
Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
>
> Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG.
>
> Regards,
> Sarmad
>
> ====
>
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
>
> Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines
> WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS.
>
> In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note
> that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable
labels.
> The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if
> any) and devise a policy to address them. Therefore, for example, it
> allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable
> registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest.
>
> We hope this clarifies the guideline.
>
> With regards,
> IDN Guidelines WG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain
> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:49 PM
> To: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp
> Cc: idngwg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
>
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
>
> Thank you for your response and queries. These have been shared with
> the IDN Guidelines WG. We will get back to you as soon as the WG has
> compiled its response.
>
> Regards,
> Sarmad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:27 PM
> To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>; idngwg at icann.org
> Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp
> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
>
> Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
>
> Thank you for your confirmation.
> We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted.
>
> We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines.
>
> To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical
> cases of Japanese language words as follows.
>
> We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?
>
> In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels,
> we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be
> used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are
> visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural
> expressions or daily-used input method.
>
> As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji
> characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words.
> And daily-used computer input method supports such typing.
>
> This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of
> repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O".
> In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the
> applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of
"fortune100.
> TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0"
> are not allowed to be used in any labels at all.
>
> Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable
> characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No".
>
>
> Question for IDNGWG;
> Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 2. should confusable labels be blocked?
>
> Please see the following examples.
>
> "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey"
>
> "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese
> photographers "hani hajime"
>
> These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people.
>
> But these consist of totally different characters with different
> reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both
> words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
>
> Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion.
>
> If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved
> using DRP.
>
> Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable
> labels be blocked?" is "No".
>
>
> Questions for IDNGWG;
> Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the
> above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your
opinion?
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Best Regards,
> ----
> Yoshitaka Okuno
> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000
> Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> >
> > I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
> >
> > Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your
> follow-up
> > query.
> >
> > Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the
> > integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root
> > Zone
> LGR.
> >
> > Regards
> > Sarmad
> >
> >
> > -----------
> > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> >
> > The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing
> > system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
> >
> > Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode
> standard,
> > Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han)
scripts.
> > Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But
> associated
> > Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and
> > Kanji
> > (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the
> > Japanese writing system.
> >
> > Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing
> > cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be
> > applicable to
> the
> > Japanese writing system as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> > IDN Guidelines WG
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM
> > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>
> > Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana
> > <pitinan.koo at icann.org>; idngwg at icann.org
> > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
> >
> > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
> >
> > I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my
> > SPAM filter.
> >
> > Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
> >
> > We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item
> > V of
> > "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the
> > guidelines.
> >
> > ===
> > Guideline 15:
> > For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and
> > Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of
> > Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the
> > same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, ....
> > ===
> >
> > We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and
> > "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we
> > should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
> >
> > We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with
> > Integration Panel members.
> >
> > Thanks and Regards,
> >
> > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co.,
Ltd.
> >
> > PS.
> > We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt
> > with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if
> > such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated
> > more openly
> later.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > ----
> > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co.,
Ltd.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000
> > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your response.
> > >
> > > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your
> > > response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Sarmad
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM
> > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>
> > > Cc: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana
> > > <pitinan.koo at icann.org>; idngwg at icann.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
> > >
> > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your response.
> > >
> > > We summarized our understanding as below.
> > >
> > > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr.
> > > Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
> > >
> > > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to
> > > the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
> > >
> > > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered
> > > as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for your assistance.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > ----
> > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services
> > > Co.,
> Ltd.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain
> > > <sarmad.hussain at icann.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> > > >
> > > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working
> > > > Group
> > > (IDNGWG).
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Sarmad
> > > > =============
> > > >
> > > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services
> > > > Co.,
> > Ltd.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates
> > > > the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at
> > > > multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
> > > >
> > > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed
> > > > version
> > > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0
> > > > of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.o
> > > > rg
> > > > _r
> > > > es
> > > >
> > > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY
> > > 1u
> > > 3P
> > > Jp6wrc
> > > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyL
> > > m-
> > > mx
> > > d028M4
> > > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-
> > > dh ED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
> > > >
> > > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from
> the
> > > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24:
> > > > Script Names
> > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode
> > > > .o
> > > > rg
> > > > _r
> > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5
> > > > cM
> > > > &r
> > > > =K
> > > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1Ci
> > > > vM
> > > > pm
> > > > _V
> > > >
g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.
> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
> > > established orthographies and conventions that require the
> > > commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this
> > > exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts
> > > will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible
> > > code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is
> > > clearly
> defined."
> > > >
> > > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has
> > > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first
> > > > part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing
> guideline:
> > > >
> > > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken
from
> > the
> > > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24:
> > > > Unicode Script Property
> > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode
> > > > .o
> > > > rg
> > > > _r
> > > >
> > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM
> > > &r
> > > =K
> > > TETvEa
> > > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg7
> > > 1w
> > > e- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=).
> > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
> > > established orthographies and conventions that require the
> > > commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
> > > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
> > > >
> > > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of
> > Unicode
> > > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts
> > > > must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible
> > > > code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is
> > > > clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names.
> > > > Also see
> Additional
> > Note IV.
> > > >
> > > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its
> > > > members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer
> > > > clarifications without changing the intention of the original
> > > > guideline in version 3.0, as per the details
> > > > below:
> > > >
> > > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG
> > > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in
> > > > Guideline 16.
> > > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be
> > > ambiguous
> > > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script”
> > > > as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in
> > > > the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR
24.
> > > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing
> > > system
> > > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input,
> > > > the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which
> > > > mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by
> > > > default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be
> > > > generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note
> > > > and not in the text of the
> > guideline.
> > > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is
a
> > > known
> > > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also
> notes
> > > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII.
> > > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and
> > > > hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore,
> > > > cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録".
> So
> > > > the
> > Additional
> > > > Notes
> > > V
> > > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode
> > > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
> > > >
> > > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which
> > > > call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14
> > > > specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for
> > > > allowed cross-script
> > > cases.
> > > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both
> > > > these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest
> > > > additional mechanisms for this purpose.
> > > >
> > > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has
> > > > tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you
> > > > have any further input or concerns.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > IDN Guidelines WG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp]
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM
> > > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg at iis.se>
> > > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>; Pitinan
> > > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo at icann.org>
> > > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
> > > >
> > > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair,
> > > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
> > > >
> > > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN
> > > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion
> > > > made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted
below).
> > > > For these one and half months, I have not received any response
> > > > to that
> from
> > you.
> > > >
> > > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of
> > > > the IDN Guidelines"
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.o
> > > > rg
> > > > _n
> > > > ew
> > > > s_anno
> > > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVz
> > > > gf
> > > > kb
> > > > PS
> > > > S6sJms
> > > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-T
> > > > xc
> > > > ZW
> > > > 1P
> > > > mY1jJ5
> > > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXM
> > > > IF
> > > > dZ
> > > > Le
> > > > g&e=
> > > > was published.
> > > >
> > > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without
> > > > prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
> > > >
> > > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services
> > > > Co.,
> > Ltd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka at jprs.co.jp wrote:
> > > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal.
> > > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following
> > > > > your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in
San Juan.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by
> > > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this may be of help to you.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Summary]
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually
> > confusable
> > > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of
> > > > > multiple scripts.
> > > > >
> > > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases
> > > > > stated in Guideline#15.
> > > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a
> > > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and
> > > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in
> > > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the
collective
> > > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to
ONE
> > > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English
> > > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE
> > > > > script.
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts
is
> > > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the
same
> > > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain
> > > > > labels.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable
> > > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes
> because
> > > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly
pointed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable
> > > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script
and
> > > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we
think
> > > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in
> > > > > guideline#16.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Suggestion]
> > > > >
> > > > > We would like to propose as follows.
> > > > >
> > > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to
> > > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new
section
> > > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
> > > > >
> > > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
> > > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > 16.
> > > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in
> > > > > a
> single
> > > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly
> > > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize
> confusion
> > > > > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > > > --
> > > > > -
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your consideration.
> > > > > ----
> > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno
> > > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry
> > > > > Services Co., Ltd.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0
> > > Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> > > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
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> > > 5D
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> > > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0--
> >
> >
>
>
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