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<div>Forwarding reply. I think the group email got dropped off accidentally.</div>
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<div>PS</div>
<div>It would be great if the mailing list address ‘sent on behalf’ to avoid direct replies going missing</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Edmon Chung <<a href="mailto:edmon@registry.asia">edmon@registry.asia</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, 18 November 2015 at 9:11 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>'Mats Dufberg' <<a href="mailto:mats.dufberg@iis.se">mats.dufberg@iis.se</a>>, Kal Feher <<a href="mailto:kalman.feher@neustar.biz">kalman.feher@neustar.biz</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">Agree with using MUST / SHOULD and possibly MAY too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">Agree that we should probably revisit specific assignments after we have a good stocktaking of the issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">Edmon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mats Dufberg via Idngwg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Feher, Kal; <a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Rather than deferring to another document we can explicitly state for each statement if it is a MUST, SHOULD or a recommendation. I do not think that the Guidelines will
be a large document, and by splitting it into two documents we increase confusion and the risk that both documents are not read.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Let us postpone the final decision, but you raise an important point that we must consider if it is a MUST, a SHOULD or a recommendation. In my list that I sent some hours
ago probably contain all three types.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Yours,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Mats<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">Mats Dufberg</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">DNS Specialist, IIS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">Mobile: +46 73 065 3899<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.iis.se_en&d=CwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=_-v0M-gLiqWrtaHtP66hjSPyu3ePgw9YIihGxxybjqU&m=w5UphEdneaif45sl4jdL73oSwrvik0CjYKxmhTJ73qA&s=mFKrB02b3x1h_maN6owCxINm1wi9d5RrKwpJnKs_sdo&e=">https://www.iis.se/en/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Från:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of idngwg <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Svara till: </b>"Feher, Kal" <<a href="mailto:Kalman.Feher@neustar.biz">Kalman.Feher@neustar.biz</a>><br>
<b>Datum: </b>Wednesday 18 November 2015 09:06<br>
<b>Till: </b>idngwg <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Ämne: </b>Re: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I think you may have misunderstood my point. The guidelines are part of the RA which makes them enforceable. There’s no likelihood they’ll be removed from the RA,
so we have to be mindful of the impact of any inclusion, no matter how trivial. Therefore only items we want to be explicitly enforceable should be present in the guidelines. However we may want to explore alternative expressions for our advice if we consider
something important enough to document, but impractical for contractual inclusion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My question during our first meeting regarding the original purpose of the guidelines was with their current use in mind. The answer as I recall, was that there
was no specific goal and that they evolved through several iterations with no purpose other than to document good implementation advice. Given that the older revisions were developed ignorant of what would become the current use of the guidelines, we should
take this as an opportunity to consider exactly what belongs in a contractually enforceable IDN implementation document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I have to disagree regarding your suggestion that we not defer to other documents. I think we should always defer to other documents. Having any specific advice
within the guidelines will result in those items becoming immutable, no matter how impractical they might become. There are forums for providing expert advice on specific IDN topics and we should allow those forums to guide Registry operators rather than overriding
them with this document. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Edmon Chung <<a href="mailto:edmon@registry.asia">edmon@registry.asia</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 18 November 2015 at 5:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Those are all good points.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I am not so sure whether enforcement/oversight is within the scope of our discussion though. On that, I think perhaps more appropriate to rely on existing mechanisms
(including for gTLDs the new implementation & policy recommendations)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On the question of “standards or advisory body”, I view this group as the expert “body” producing the guidelines. Although I am not sure whether it is appropriate
to understand us as a “body” per se.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">More specifically, rather than *defer* to other documents, perhaps we can identify a few sets of documents as our points of references, and *refer* to them in the
guidelines:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- Current (and past versions of) IDN Guidelines</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- Policy related documents (from ccNSO and GNSO) concerning IDN</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- Relevant portions of IDN fast track and AGB</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- ICANN IDN Variant project documents</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN related RFCs and ongoing IETF works</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- (and others maybe)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Building on them though, I think we will need to produce recommendations that may not be explicitly included in those documents.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Edmon</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Feher, Kal via Idngwg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My suggested talking points below:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Given that this will be an enforceable document, what items belong in the guidelines and what items should be moved out to a non enforceable advisory document?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">What criteria and oversight will be applied to each item staying within the guidelines? Should items come from authoritative sources and if those sources modify
their advice, should the guidelines explicitly allow contracted parties to follow those modifications?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Will we include any items which have not been recommended by a domain name standards or advisory body and if so, should those recommendations be enforceable?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Edmon Chung <<a href="mailto:edmon@registry.asia">edmon@registry.asia</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 18 November 2015 at 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:idngwg@icann.org">idngwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Mat’s list is a good set of items for starting discussion.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">My contribution below on a more abstract/structural level. I think the following components may be useful for the guidelines:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- Terminology</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN Registration Policy Components</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN policy
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">development checklist/references</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> - IDN policies/tables/repertoires considerations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> - Technical & linguistic considerations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN Registration</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> - 2LD registrations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- ccTLD vs gTLD contextual differences</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN TLDs</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN Variants</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN Policy implementation recommendations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> - additional implementation guidelines based on ccNSO/GNSO documents</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- IDN registration systems</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">A very rough off the top of my head framework.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Edmon</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Mats Dufberg via Idngwg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 6:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> idngwg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idngwg] A draft for the meeting Wednesday</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Friends,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Enclosed is my contribution to the meeting tomorrow.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Yours,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Mats</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">--</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">Mats Dufberg</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">DNS Specialist, IIS</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">Mobile: +46 73 065 3899</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.iis.se_en&d=CwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=_-v0M-gLiqWrtaHtP66hjSPyu3ePgw9YIihGxxybjqU&m=IZDtZg3nhgM2Httz7TAQKafSuLY1F6opzoVFaqIJcJI&s=vtp0t2dt8PmZr_sCOR_fOklHHsSjiB9pPMt6rnGi2pw&e=">https://www.iis.se/en/</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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