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Milton:<br>
<br>
I agree with the first bullet points, but have reservations on the
last. I agree that no customer stakeholder objection related to the
proposal can exist and still have a consensus, but I also think that
we cannot have a consensus if a number of the non-customer
stakeholders object.<br>
<br>
Best-<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/14/2014 2:49 PM, Milton L Mueller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">On
the “holdout” problem, I think Martin’s principles
addressed your concerns. To reproduce them here:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">The aim of the discussion should be to try to
find a solution where *<b>no member of the ICG still
maintains serious opposition to the outcome.</b>* Reasons
for objections should be given, allowing the ICG wherever
possible to try to address those concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">*<b>Recourse to any form of voting should be
the exception.</b>* Its use might be fine for
non-substantive issues. For substantive issues, at least
none of the “customer groups” (numbers, protocols, gTLDs or
ccTLDs) of the IANA remains strongly opposed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Group members who still have problems with the
evaluation should be invited to *<b>identify possible ways
in which the proposal could be modified to make it
acceptable to them.</b>*<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Discussions should continue until *<b>no “IANA
customer” group is firmly opposed.</b>*
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Note
these two things:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
there really is no consensus (and that DOES mean no one
objects, even if they don’t fully agree) then we are
reverting to a kind of supermajority voting or decision rule
as outlined in the GNSO rules. Purists like me refuse to
call this “consensus.” It doesn’t mean that we are “stuck”
or blocked, it just means that we really don’t have
something that conforms to the classical meaning of
consensus. I think we should not play verbal games and call
this “consensus.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">IANA
customer groups (groups, not individuals) have a kind of
special status in Martin’s principles, given their direct
stake in how IANA is managed. Even though I am not
representing a customer group, I think this is fair. If
everyone in a particular customer group cannot live with a
decision, it is certainly not consensus and we probably
shouldn’t force such a decision on them, no matter how much
everyone else supports it. We might extend the same kind of
protection to other groups; e.g., if none of the user
representatives (NCSG and ALAC) agree, it would seem
unreasonable to claim that an outcome has even “rough”
consensus. But if one particular individual within that user
group can’t be swayed, then it should not be considered the
same kind of obstacle to an outcome.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hope
this is clear<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Milton
L Mueller<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Laura
J and L. Douglas Meredith Professor
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Syracuse
University School of Information Studies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://faculty.ischool.syr.edu/mueller/"><span
style="color:blue">http://faculty.ischool.syr.edu/mueller/</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Drazek, Keith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 14, 2014 2:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Coordination Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building
process<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Just
so I’m clear…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Looking
ahead….if we end up with 29 ICG reps in favor of a final
recommendation and one person who unreasonably refuses to
compromise, will that be deemed “consensus” or “no
consensus?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hypothetically
speaking, if one holdout among us can obstruct a decision
that has received support from all other members, and
would prevent delivery of a recommendation….I find that
very troubling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>WUKnoben<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 14, 2014 1:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kavouss Arasteh<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Coordination Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building
process<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
Kavouss,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">you
make the same point I expressed by saying that “I’m
still uncertain with “non-substantive” issues which
level of substance may depend on different views”. I
would welcome you providing other more useful
criteria to decide in which rare cases a “poll” or
“voting” could apply.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">As
you may have seen in my latest draft I removed the
“adjectives” from consensus. So I would appreciate
your written suggestion for an acceptable text that
I could better understand your disagreement with the
present proposal.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
Wolf-Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com"
title="kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com">Kavouss
Arasteh</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:22 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de"
title="wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de">
WUKnoben</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Cc:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
title="mueller@syr.edu">Milton L Mueller</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk"
title="Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk">
Martin Boyle</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg@icann.org"
title="internal-cg@icann.org">
Coordination Group</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building process<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I
am not comfortable to any of these measures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The
more we discuss and analyze ,the more problem is
created.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I
strongly disagree to make any discrimination
among the contstituent groups in ICG ,WHEN IT IS
PROPOSED qUOTE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">"For substantive issues, at least
none of the “customer groups” (numbers,
protocols, gTLDs or ccTLDs) of the IANA remains
strongly opposed"</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">What is considered by someone "
substantive" may be considered by others " non
substantive,</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">NO ADJECTIVE FOR OPPOSITION .NO
ADJECTIVE FOR SCONSENSUS.</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">If you want instead of making
progress to draft another chatter or convention
for decision making ,I disagree with that .</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">It ios incumbent to the chair and
the two vice chairs to make utmost efforts to
build consensus-</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Pls end this discussion</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Regards</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Kavouss
</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">2014-08-14
18:32 GMT+02:00 WUKnoben <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de"
target="_blank">wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks
all for your valuable input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Milton
is right calling for verbal clarity. But
differentation is also needed and there
are different approaches to achieve it.
And as I said before the suggestion so
far was based on GNSO habit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I
tried to accomodate the discussion and
therefore suggest to differentiate
between “recommendation by consensus”
(highest level, 100%) and
“recommendation” (all remaining
discussion results leading to a
recommendation).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I
agree to all basic principles Martin
came up with and incorporated them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I’m
still uncertain with “non-substantive”
issues which level of substance may
depend on different views.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I
would appreciate further fruitful
discussion on the list and we will
hopefully see an end at our call next
week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">See
my edits attached.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
Wolf-Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
target="_blank"
title="mueller@syr.edu">Milton L
Mueller</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Tuesday, August 12, 2014 8:12 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk"
target="_blank"
title="Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk">
'Martin Boyle'</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
title="internal-cg@icann.org">
Coordination Group</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus
building process<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think Martin makes very good
points here.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
like his proposed principles,
every one of them.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
must confess that I have been
wincing at the way the word
“consensus” is (ab)used routinely
in these circles. Either it is
truly consensus, and everyone
either agrees or agrees not to
object, or it is _something else_.
Will we please stop trying to
apply the term “consensus” to
supermajority voting processes? My
academic commitment to verbal
clarity and directness is
screaming at me that this is
wrong.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
IETF concept of “rough” consensus
is an informal mechanism that is
suitable for a more homogeneous
environment in which adherence to
standards is voluntary anyway, but
in an environment with binding
outcomes and political factions,
it can and, in the ICANN context,
frequently HAS merely provided a
rationalization for ignoring
significant minority points of
view. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">--MM</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt">
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin
Boyle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August
12, 2014 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Coordination
Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Internal-cg] Consensus
building process</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Hi All,</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">First thanks to
Wolf-Ulrich for his paper. I
greatly like the idea of
standards of good behaviour and
mutual respect – and I’m pleased
to see that this is already very
much the framework for the way
that the ICG works. I’d also
note that the analysis of shades
of grey in levels of support is
interesting – was it Patrik who
first noted the two extremes
(non-substantial and substantial
issues) and the level of
consensus that might be needed?
I’m just not sure I know how to
use them…</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">I’d firmly endorse
the aim that “the ICG … reach at
least Consensus on the Proposal
for the IANA Stewardship
Transition to be forwarded to
the NTIA” subject to our
continued effort to try to
achieve full/unanimous consensus
or (at least) to have addressed
address points of concern.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">However, I do not
like processes that are supposed
to be by consensus being
resolved by voting (cf WCIT):
voting leaves winners and
losers. It also means that
people get lazy and fail to look
for compromise or common ground
or ways to address “reasonable”
concerns. That aversion is not
really addressed by
supermajorities: even at an 80%
supermajority, all the domain
name registries or all the
government representatives or
all GNSO members could be
overruled. At 85% all the ccTLD
registries, at 90% all the gTLD
registries could be ignored.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">I do recognise the
need for a mechanism that allows
us to come to a final
recommendation and I’m afraid
that I do not see any magic
wand. But I would suggest a
number of basic principles:</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">The aim of the
discussion should be to try to
find a solution where *<b>no
member of the ICG still
maintains serious opposition
to the outcome.</b>* Reasons
for objections should be given,
allowing the ICG wherever
possible to try to address those
concerns.</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">*<b>Recourse to any
form of voting should be the
exception.</b>* Its use might
be fine for non-substantive
issues. For substantive issues,
at least none of the “customer
groups” (numbers, protocols,
gTLDs or ccTLDs) of the IANA
remains strongly opposed.</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Group members who
still have problems with the
evaluation should be invited to
*<b>identify possible ways in
which the proposal could be
modified to make it acceptable
to them.</b>*</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Discussions should
continue until *<b>no “IANA
customer” group is firmly
opposed.</b>*
</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">One final point: I
would be willing to allow anyone
who feels that they have not
been heard to put a minority
view into the final report. I’d
rather that did not happen, but
if the views are strong enough,
it would be best to have then
documented in the report than to
be first aired in the discussion
that follows the publication of
our final report.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Cheers</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-GB">Martin</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kavouss
Arasteh<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 August 2014
20:48<br>
<b>To:</b> Drazek, Keith<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Coordination Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Internal-cg] Consensus
building process</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"
lang="EN-GB">Dear All,</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"
lang="EN-GB">Undoubtedly, it
would be super majority
either 2/3 or 4/5 .</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"
lang="EN-GB">Kavouss
</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"
lang="EN-GB">2014-08-11
18:18 GMT+02:00 Drazek,
Keith <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com"
target="_blank">kdrazek@verisign.com</a>>:</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"
lang="EN-GB">I agree that we
will need a clear process
for determining consensus
that falls somewhere on the
spectrum between humming and
requiring a unanimous vote.<br>
<br>
If we get in to discussions
of voting, we'll also need
to address the thresholds
required to establish
consensus. Is it a simple
majority? Super-majority?
Unanimous voting is an
unhelpful requirement that
would likely obstruct our
work and our ability to
deliver, so I believe that
should be a non-starter for
the ICG. We need to avoid
the possibility of one
dissenting vote undermining
an otherwise strongly
supported recommendation
that represents broad
community consensus.<br>
<br>
However, if/when there is
not full consensus, it will
be important that we have a
mechanism for expressing
dissenting opinions. The
GNSO Registries Stakeholder
Group employs a "minority
statement" mechanism to
allow for all views to be
expressed when there is
consensus but not unanimity
on a particular topic.
Perhaps we should consider a
similar mechanism for the
ICG.<br>
</span><span
style="color:#888888"
lang="EN-GB"><br>
Keith</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">internal-cg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Subrenat,
Jean-Jacques<br>
Sent: Monday, August 11,
2014 6:09 AM<br>
To: Kavouss Arasteh<br>
Cc: Coordination Group<br>
Subject: Re:
[Internal-cg] Consensus
building process<br>
<br>
Hello Colleagues,<br>
<br>
From the experience of
the past few weeks,
unfortunately we can
conclude that the
current process is not
successful. Rather than
meting out blame or
praise, we need to
understand why it's not
working. Group dynamics
and a bit of sociology
can help.<br>
<br>
Our Coordination Group
is different from what
some of us/you have come
to consider as "normal".
The technical bodies
(IETF, IAB) have
developed an efficient
process where "rough
consensus" is understood
and accepted. But other
components of the ICG
have different habits,
and also a different
accountability
mechanism: however
attractive "rough" may
be, it is insufficient.
For example, the GAC has
its own rules (a joint
position can only be
reached by unanimity),
and the ALAC routinely
conducts all its votes
on a full-membership
basis (each member has
to say ay, nay, abstain,
or be noted down as not
having cast a vote).<br>
<br>
So the challenge is
this: is the "rough
consensus" really
adapted to all the needs
of our group? With the
experience gained
collectively in London,
and especially since
then, I would recommend
a dual approach:<br>
<br>
A/ MATTERS REQUIRING ALL
MEMBERS TO VOTE
(typically, to be
decided as soon as
possible, with the
exception of our
Transition plan)<br>
- Chair structure and
membership,<br>
- Charter of the ICG,<br>
- choice of
Secretariat (ICANN or
outside of ICANN, or a
mixture of both),<br>
- choice of
near-final drafts and
approval of final draft
of our Transition plan,
before presentation to
the NTIA.<br>
<br>
B/ MATTERS WHERE OTHER
FORMS OF DECISION-MAKING
ARE ACCEPTABLE<br>
- Appraisal of
specific community
input, as a contribution
to the ICG's recommended
plan (e.g. ALAC should
appraise input from its
own community before
submitting it to the
whole ICG),<br>
- external relations
and communications of
the ICG (once the Chair
structure has been
chosen and populated, it
may wish to ask Chair,
or another of its
members, to be the point
of contact),<br>
- administrative
& logistic matters,
in conjunction with the
chosen Secretariat (here
too, delegation would be
possible).<br>
<br>
I'm prepared to provide
a more detailed proposal
for the above items.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jean-Jacques.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Mail original
-----<br>
De: "Kavouss Arasteh"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>><br>
À: "Patrik Fältström"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paf@frobbit.se" target="_blank">paf@frobbit.se</a>><br>
Cc: "Coordination Group"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:internal-cg@icann.org" target="_blank">internal-cg@icann.org</a>><br>
Envoyé: Lundi 11 Août
2014 10:40:08<br>
Objet: Re: [Internal-cg]
Consensus building
process<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Wolf<br>
Thank you very much for
reply<br>
My point is that if one
or more ICG Mmember(s)
is7are againszt the
ruling of the Chir ,They
could raise their issue
and the matter must be
settled by simple
explanation or if not
resolved by voting .
I.E. CHAIR DOES NOT HAVE
DECISION MAKING POWER ON
HE OR HIS OWN WISHES
RATHER TO TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT VIEWS OF MEMBERS
Regards KAVOUSS Regards<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2014-08-11 8:33
GMT+02:00 Patrik
Fältström < <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paf@frobbit.se" target="_blank">
paf@frobbit.se</a>
> :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11 aug 2014, at
08:09, WUKnoben < <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de" target="_blank">
wolf-ulrich.knoben@t-online.de</a> > wrote:<br>
<br>
> The chair’s
designation that
consensus is reached is
not her/his own decision
rather than a wrap-up of
extensive discussions.
Of course this
designation can be
challenged by members.
And this is what
triggers your question
about “If several
participants in the ICG
disagree with the
designation given ...”.
I’m open to any helpful
suggestion on how we
could procede in such a
case.<br>
> In the end
consensus - as defined –
has to be achieved.<br>
<br>
Let me emphasize what
you say here, which I
strongly agree with.<br>
<br>
We must deliver.<br>
<br>
This implies we must be
able to reach consensus.<br>
<br>
The last couple of weeks
discussions on various
topics makes me a bit
pessimistic on the
ability for us to reach
consensus, but I am
optimistic, always
optimistic, on peoples
ability and interest in
actually deliver.<br>
<br>
Remember that the chair
is calling on the
consensus question, not
the substance. That way
the power of the chair
is decreased to a
minimum and process
issues.<br>
<br>
Patrik<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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