<div dir="ltr">Pindar, all,<div><br></div><div>I think that the question of "a set of principles for Internet Governance" needs a bit more discussion in depth before we decide whether, and if so how, we address it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My view: </div><div><br></div><div>There have been over the last couple of years many groups trying to establish sets of principles (and rights) related to Internet Governance. Hartmut and Debbie have given us two just today. In the IGF contex there are maybe two dozen proposals from different origins. You win if you bet that they are different. They don't only differ in how they slice the pie but also in how the pie is made. </div>
<div><br></div><div>That means that not all give the same weight to, say freedom of expression. Some start with the right to life. Others are more concentrated on Internetsy stuff. </div><div><br></div><div>One approach I like particularly is the one by Frank LaRue, the UN Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression, an eminently reasonable guy. He says simply (and was picked up as a resolution in the UN Human Rights area): let the same rights be true online as are offline. Don't do anything online that curtails a right that exists offline. And, if you are going to limit a right (say freedom of speech is limited by slander, national security and public peace; or say you need to violate privacy for surveillance) let the same rules apply: the limitation of a right has to occur exceptionally, for a very limited and well defined purpose, and explicitly by law or judicial order. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I know this is now "rights" and not "principles" but these stark examples illustrate what happens with either rights or principles: there are many views and ways to express them, and they don't really converge.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In fact, in the IGF environment there are not one but several efforts to compile the sets of principles, to collate them, and to see whether there are any commonalities.</div><div><br></div><div>Coming back to ICANN very specifically, you PIndar (and Vint and I for sure!) may remember the time and discussions it took us to hammer together the Core Values embodied in ICANN's bylaws. And they still have a lot of leeway: "free markets where appropriate"...</div>
<div><br></div><div>So I'm not keen in trying to produce a complete set of principles or anything like it. Maybe a set of minimal principles and still we'll see trouble among us.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll take this one step further: this evening in Buenos Aires Fadi addressed LACRALO (Latin America and Caribbean At-Large (Internet users) Organization, a body of ICANN. He said one objective of our and especially the "big" panel chaired by President Ilves of Estonia is to define multistakeholder in one clear, single definition, because there are too many and that causes trouble.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My only comment on that (which I will convey to him in the morning) is that having multiple definitions of multistakeholderism instead of a single one is not a but, it's a feature.</div><div><br></div>
<div>Yours,</div><div><br></div><div>Alejandro Pisanty</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, pindar wong <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pindar.wong@gmail.com" target="_blank">pindar.wong@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Yup... understood. That's a very vaild point that principles stand or fall over details how their are stewarded.<br>
<br>I guess my point is that we have to start from 1st principles -- such as a statement of principles, against which all else may be both self-referenced and externally referenced. <br>
<br>Clearly hypocrisy can take many forms, but if there is a modicum of transparency and openness, then the difference between practice and theory will be publicly evident -- and therein lies a world of difference. <br><br>
</div>Cheers,<br><br>p.<br> <br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:apisan@unam.mx" target="_blank">apisan@unam.mx</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>this is one more of this things that sound good till tested, gamed, and obliterated. Like privacy statements on websites, or the small letters in software licenses.</div>
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<div>Do note also the ITU's definition of its being multistakeholder (as one example.)</div>
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<div>Compliance mechanisms, auditing, opportunities for decision appeal, reversal and redress... now that's another level but also another level of cost. Witness ATRT (1, 2, and who knows what's next.) </div>
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<div>Yours,</div>
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<div>Alejandro Pisanty<br>
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Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
Facultad de Química UNAM </font></span></span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Desde:</b> <a href="mailto:ecosystem-panel-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ecosystem-panel-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ecosystem-panel-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ecosystem-panel-bounces@icann.org</a>] en nombre de pindar wong [<a href="mailto:pindar.wong@gmail.com" target="_blank">pindar.wong@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> lunes, 18 de noviembre de 2013 17:32<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> <a href="mailto:ioepanel@icann.org" target="_blank">ioepanel@icann.org</a><br>
<b>CC:</b> <a href="mailto:ecosystem-panel@icann.org" target="_blank">ecosystem-panel@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: Strategy Panel on ICANN's Role in Internet Governance Ecosystem [ioepanel]
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<div>Greetings,<br>
<br>
Perhaps a 'Public Statement of Principles' is itself a principle that should be considered for institutions that claim to have public interest objectives in the Internet Governance Ecosystem.
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p.<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 4:53 AM, Carlton Samuels <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com" target="_blank">carlton.samuels@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">Thanks for sharing Debbie. Much obliged. </div>
<div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">I note that NZ has institutional objectives anchored in principles. Nice.</div>
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<div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">-Carlton </div>
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Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:876-818-1799" value="+18768181799" target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br>
<i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Debbie Monahan <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:dnc@dnc.org.nz" target="_blank">dnc@dnc.org.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>The InternetNZ Group has also documented its principles. There is one document of Policy Principles and another of Top Level Domains Principles. </div>
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<div><a href="https://internetnz.net.nz/principles" target="_blank">https://internetnz.net.nz/principles</a></div>
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<div>Cheers</div>
<div>Debbie</div>
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<div>On 19/11/2013, at 6:51 AM, Hartmut Richard Glaser <<a href="mailto:glaser@cgi.br" target="_blank">glaser@cgi.br</a>> wrote:</div>
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<big>Brazilian Principles for the Governance and use of the Internet<br>
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<a href="http://www.cgi.br/regulamentacao/pdf/resolucao-2009-003-pt-en-es.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cgi.br/regulamentacao/pdf/resolucao-2009-003-pt-en-es.pdf</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>Facultad de Química UNAM<br>Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
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