[IOT] Summary Discussion thread #4 - please review and respond.
Burr, Becky
Becky.Burr at neustar.biz
Wed Sep 7 18:36:05 UTC 2016
I think we definitely have consensus regarding the ability to cross examine witnesses, if any. Beyond that, we still seem to have some divergence. Interestingly, I think the Heather Dryden testimony was permitted notwithstanding the limitation to “argument only.”
J. Beckwith Burr
Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
From: Mike Rodenbaugh <mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>
Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:28 PM
To: Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn<mailto:tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn>>
Cc: "iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>" <iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [IOT] Summary Discussion thread #4 - please review and respond.
I am confused whether we are talking about possibility of witnesses in all hearings (including telephonic), or only in live hearings? I am not aware of any arbitration scheme that limits witnesses only to "exceptional circumstances." It seems the main purported justification for that position is cost of flying in witnesses, so only is germane to live hearings -- so for telephonic hearings, witnesses should be allowed if not routinely, then upon a demonstration of need... but not only in "exceptional circumstances." Witnesses are needed at times to explain ambiguities or omissions in the documents, and should not generally be limited only to "exceptional circumstances" in routine telephonic hearings.
And to finish the point, if there are witnesses, then they must be subject to cross-examination in all cases. I think we have consensus at least on that?
One actual case where ICANN's witness clearly proved critical to the panel was the .Africa decision. That was a live hearing. Would Heather Dryden's testimony have been allowed under this "exceptional circumstances" test? If not, then the test is too stringent.
Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087
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On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 5:43 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn<mailto:tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn>> wrote:
Fine for me.
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Le 7 sept. 2016 à 12:53, Marianne Georgelin <marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr<mailto:marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr>> a écrit :
I'm also ok with that.
Marianne
________________________________
De: "Thomas Rickert" <thomas at rickert.net<mailto:thomas at rickert.net>>
À: "Christopher Disspain" <chris at disspain.id.au<mailto:chris at disspain.id.au>>
Cc: iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>
Envoyé: Mercredi 7 Septembre 2016 12:11:13
Objet: Re: [IOT] Summary Discussion thread #4 - please review and respond.
Same here!
Thomas
Am 07.09.2016 um 08:07 schrieb Christopher Disspain <chris at disspain.id.au<mailto:chris at disspain.id.au>>:
Works for me also.
Chris
On 6 Sep 2016, at 17:15, Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz<mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>> wrote:
So that is consistent with the McAuley view – witnesses in “extraordinary circumstances only” evaluated on a witness by witness basis. I am likewise ok with that. Would love to hear from others
J. Beckwith Burr
Neustar, Inc./Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
Office:+1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B1.202.533.2932> Mobile:+1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367>/neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz/>
From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 11:08 AM
To: Marianne Georgelin <marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr<mailto:marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr>>
Cc: "iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>" <iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [IOT] Summary Discussion thread #4 - please review and respond.
I'm not sure how this fits into the alternatives, but I assume "argument only" means no witnesses at all. I'm okay with that, except in exceptional circumstances. However, if witnesses are going to be used, they should be subject to questions from both sides (whether that follows common-law principles of cross-examination is another question, perhaps). Allowing one party to put on witnesses to make statements (whether in response to friendly questions or otherwise) most favorable to that party without allowing the other party to question those witnesses (within certain parameters) is inherently unfair.
Greg
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 4:03 AM, Marianne Georgelin <marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr<mailto:marianne.georgelin at afnic.fr>> wrote:
Dear all,
I'm catching up on all your comments to add my 2 (euros) cents on thread #4 discussion.
On the cross-examination matter, my preference goes to Alt. 1 (All hearings shall be limited to argument only).
As David said earlier, this procedure should remain a simplified arbitration aimed at quick and cost effective outcomes.
According to me, witness cross-examination will not fit this purpose.
First of all, it seems that this procedure would entail important costs in terms of translation (for non english speaking witnesses), travel and lawyer fees.
Moreover, the fact that lawyers have to be familiar with common law cross-examination procedures may prevent people from civil law countries to easily find representation in their home countries.
Bonne journée :)
Marianne
[AFNIC]
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________________________________
De: "Greg Shatan" <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
À: "Becky Burr" <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz<mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>>
Cc: iot at icann.org<mailto:iot at icann.org>
Envoyé: Mardi 30 Août 2016 06:59:39
Objet: Re: [IOT] Summary Discussion thread #4 - please review and respond.
I assume cross-examination to mean questioning by the opposing counsel, not the panel.
I would also assume the panel can always question a witness whether or not they grant the opposing counsel the right to cross-examination.
I have not read any IRP transcripts so I don't know how witnesses are handled. In a US civil matter, the witnesses are typically questioned by the side putting them up ("direct") and then opposing counsel ("cross"). Questions from the bench are unusual. Is that how IRPs work, or is it a situation where the panel does a lot of questioning of the witness? If it's the former, Malcolm's thoughts about the panel's reasoning would not seem on target.
All that said, if there is a hearing with witnesses, I strongly believe that opposing counsel should always have the right to question them.
Greg
On Monday, August 29, 2016, Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz<mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>> wrote:
Thanks Malcolm. The standard for telephonic hearings is far short of the
³extraordinary circumstances² test (Currently reads ³if necessary² but
Mike Rodenbaugh has proposed lowering that.) How would you approach
witness cross examination in that situation?
J. Beckwith Burr
Neustar, Inc. / Deputy
General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
Office: +1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B1.202.533.2932> Mobile: +1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367> / neustar.biz<http://neustar.biz/>
<http://www.neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz/>>
On 8/29/16, 4:36 PM, "Malcolm Hutty" <malcolm at linx.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>> wrote:
>On 29/08/2016 16:15, Burr, Becky wrote:
>> David McAuley has weighed in to support application of the
>> ³extraordinary circumstances² test to BOTH the question of whether or
>> not an in-person hearing is held AND to whether cross examination is
>> permitted. I know others have different views but not hearing them yet
>> on these emails.
>
>I would have thought that the most obvious reason why the Panel would
>think it necessary to hold a hearing in person would be because they
>wanted the opportunity to examine a witness. So setting up a two-stage
>test (once to allow a hearing, and a second to allow examination of a
>witness) would seem to defeat the most likely purpose.
>
>I recognise ICANN's concern about the cost of flying in witnesses
>(especially if contractors rather than staff, such as EIU). But the
>"extraordinary circumstances test" already sets a very high bar, so I
>think this concern is already protected; I don't see what more we can
>reasonably do other than prohibit witnesses altogether, and I do feel
>very uncomfortable about telling the Panel "Even if you feel it
>essential to achieve a fair outcome, and if you believe the failure to
>hear this witness fundamentally undermines the purpose of the IRP, you
>still may not hear them".
>
>I suppose it's also worth noting that witnesses are not compelled. If a
>party feels that producing their witness is too expensive, they don't
>have to do so. This may put them at a disadvantage if the other party
>has a compelling witness that needs answering, but it's their choice.
>
>But this isn't an issue I want to die in a ditch over, if others disagree.
>
>
>>
>> *J. Beckwith Burr****
>> **Neustar, Inc.***/**Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
>> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
>> *Office:***+1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B1.202.533.2932> *Mobile:***+1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367> */**neustar.biz<http://neustar.biz/>*
>> <http://www.neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz/>>
>>
>>
>> From: <Burr>, Becky Burr <becky.burr at neustar.biz<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>
>> <mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>>>
>> Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 5:33 PM
>> To: "iot at icann.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=> <mailto:iot at icann.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>>" <iot at icann.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>
>> <mailto:iot at icann.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__JAVASCRIPT-2DBLOCKED-3B&d=DQMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=9FBbX1IEsk8dsO0eT-k5uLzR44gzyKwOGWyW3dDB1q4&s=FZUNU6-DSxedz0-1Qqk3-eipUo6CTUyuQ_qI8H1sXsI&e=>>>
>> Subject: [IOT] Discussion thread #4 (and the last one!)
>>
>>
>> The current draft provides:
>>
>> "All hearings shall be limited to argument only."
>>
>> This would generally prohibit cross examination of witnesses. There
>> appear to be a number of views among the IOT. Several members think
>> that cross examination of witnesses should be permitted as a matter of
>> course, assuming in the case of F2F hearings, that the extraordinary
>> circumstances standard has been met. In that case, all we need do is
>> drop the language above.
>>
>> Others think that cross-examination should be permitted on a
>> case-by-case basis and only where the requesting party demonstrates that
>> the requested cross-examination would meet the 3 part test for
>> ³extraordinary circumstances.² The following language would accomplish
>> that
>>
>> [unless the IRP Panel determines that the party seeking cross
>> examination of [a] witness[es] has demonstrated that such cross
>> examination is: (1) necessary for a fair resolution of the
>> claim; (2) necessary to further the PURPOSES OF THE IRP; /and/
>> (3) considerations of fairness and furtherance of the PURPOSES
>> OF THE IRP outweigh the time and financial expense of witness
>> cross examination.]
>>
>> ICANN continues to have serious concerns about the cost and delay
>> associated with cross examination of witnesses.
>>
>> *J. Beckwith Burr****
>> **Neustar, Inc.***/**Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
>> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
>> *Office:***+1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B1.202.533.2932> *Mobile:***+1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367> */**neustar.biz<http://neustar.biz/>*
>> <http://www.neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz/>>
>>
>>
>>
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