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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks David – and many thanks also to Kurt for his detailed suggestion. I don’t necessarily see this as overly formulaic. Whilst it
may, ultimately, be more detailed than we need we have had some discussion on calls about which translations, specifically, we are talking about, and even why is this an issue – which I see as being essentially because we are considering what level of translation
it is reasonable for ICANN to pick up the costs for. In other words, we are largely talking about translation financial assistance and not preventing any claimant who wants translation and can pay for it from doing so. So Kurt’s breakdown does, I think, provide
a useful reminder of the different parts of the proceedings to which this might relate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I also think the intent behind Kurt’s proposed principles (and he’ll no doubt correct me if I misunderstand) is that these would be factors
to be taken into consideration by a panel in determining whether to permit translation, at ICANN’s cost. I don’t understand the intent from the subsequent suggested rules to be that translation at ICANN’s cost is as of right – we still have the Bylaws consideration
of “need”. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To hopefully help with further discussion, I’m going to try to distil what I’ve seen from the discussion over the last few days, some of
the discussion that previously took place in the IOT, together with some of the areas of tentative agreement we reached last time and a few additional thoughts – building on Kurt’s framework (in blue) as I do find it quite helpful. I have no doubt that this
would benefit from being tidied-up, after further discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#0070C0">Principles:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As set out in the Bylaws, the primary working language of the proceedings is English, with provision of translation services for Claimants if needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">ICANN is responsible for administrative costs of the IRP proceedings (subject to any shifting of the burden under Bylaws 4.3(r), and translations services provided by ICANN to meet an established need are to be considered administrative
costs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It will be for the IRP panel (N.B. need to consider whether a determination on costs of complaint needs to come before we have the panel, as an interim measure) to determine whether translation services are needed. In making that determination
the panel will take into account the following considerations: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><s><span style="color:#0070C0">1) If one party makes the rules (ICANN), then those rules should construed in favor of the other party. (This has parallels in contract law.)</span></s><span style="color:#0070C0"> (</span>I think the intent
here is captured by 2) The IRP is intended to secure the meaningful, affordable, efficient, accessible, transparent, consistent, coherent, and just settlement of disputes<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
2) <s>As a corollary:</s> <s>if </s></span>Since <span style="color:#0070C0">one party decides the language of the proceedings (ICANN), that party should make reasonable accommodation for the other party, including bearing reasonable costs for translation.
</span>This is reflected by the Bylaws provisions 4.3(l) and 4.3(r)<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
3). “Reasonableness” should be carefully defined to provide an appropriate balance between accommodation, meeting the needs of the procedure, and avoiding abuse or unnecessary cost or procedure.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
4) No party should be disadvantage by language, </span>taking into consideration<span style="color:#0070C0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">a) whether the Claimant has suitable aptitude in English: including proficiency in written and spoken English by an officer, director, principal (or equivalent) with responsibility for the dispute, or by their legal representative<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">b) aptitude in another UN language – where there is sufficient aptitude in another UN language, then translation services will be limited to that UN language<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">5) whether the Claimant is a non-commercial entity or otherwise financially unable to bear the costs of translation<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">6) the extent to which the Claimant will financially benefit from a successful outcome of the IRP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">6) others?<span style="color:#0070C0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where it is determined that translation services are not needed, nothing prevents the claimant from making and paying for its own translation arrangements, which will be considered part of its legal expenses<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
With that in mind, our rules could provide that, </span>where need is determined<span style="color:#0070C0">:<br>
<br>
1) Understanding that the official language of the proceedings are in English, ICANN will pay for translation into English.<br>
<br>
a) This includes the initial claim / pleadings. </span>As a practical matter, a claimant intending to make a request for translation services will be able to submit their claim and initial pleading in their own language, but this should be accompanied by a
translation into English which they will be responsible, initially, for obtaining. Where a determination is later made that they have a need for translation services, there would be an expectation that the panel will ordering a contribution to those translation
costs from ICANN. In determining whether the claimant has a need for translation services, they will not be prejudiced by having arranged their own translation of the claim and initial pleadings. The word/page limit set out in the Rules will apply to the
English translation and the non-English language version will not be counted against that word/page limit.
<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
b) This applies to all languages (not only the UN languages).<br>
<br>
2) In order to ensure cost predictability and prevent translation costs being used to dis-advantage one party:<br>
<br>
a) </span>Subject to 1) above, <span style="color:#0070C0">The translations will be done by ICANN retained translators.<br>
<br>
b) </span>Evidentiary documents will be translated at ICANN’s cost only where material to the issues in dispute.
<span style="color:#0070C0">Understanding that evidentiary documents can be voluminous and also be of marginal relevance, they all need not be translated. The panel might decide that an issue is already conceded, that specific evidence is duplicative, or that
the evidence is not relevant to the germane issues. The panel can make these decisions based upon the pleadings and arguments that refer to the evidence proffered. In these cases the panel can decide that the evidence need not be translated. When making this
decision, the panel can indicate to both parties why the translation is not required. (Therefore in practice, the decision to not translate evidentiary documents will be a positive indication for the non-English-speaking party.)
</span>Where a party is making its own translation of evidentiary documents to submit with its Claim, it will be in their interests to keep such translations only to material documents if they wish to be reimbursed.
<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
3) In order to ensure that a non-English speaking party is not dis-advantaged and that translations are objectively performed:<br>
<br>
a) The ICANN-retained translators will be retained and managed by some type of double-blind process so the translators and their representatives will never speak with ICANN staff. In addition, ICANN legal staff will not be part of the engagement process.<br>
<br>
b) The non-English-speaking party (i.e., not ICANN) can retain their own translators to provide the pleadings and evidence in English but will bear the expense for that effort. That is, the party can provide the pleadings in English of they desire.<br>
<br>
4) Similar to the above, ICANN will pay for translations of its own pleadings and arguments into the language of the complainant, only if the complaining party used the ICANN-furnished translator to translate its documents and the complaining party requests
the translation.<br>
<br>
5) Similar to the above ICANN will pay for translation of evidentiary documents</span> from English into the claimant’s language<span style="color:#0070C0"> in line with item (2b) above, only if the complaining party used the ICANN-furnished translator to
translate its documents and the complaining party requests the translation<br>
<br>
6) Similar to the above, ICANN will pay for translation of the panel decisions and questions to the parties, only if the complainant used the ICANN translator to translate its documents and the complaining party requests the translation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#0070C0"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">7) Where there is a hearing, ICANN will provide and bear the costs of an interpreter, unless the claimant wishes to use their own interpreter, in which case they will bear their own costs.<span style="color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
</span>8<span style="color:#0070C0">) In summary, the complaining party will decide at the outset whether to bear any translation costs or to use ICANN translators throughout. However, there should be some mechanism for the complaining party to “change its
mind,” given an appropriate set of circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#0070C0"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">9) where translation services are ordered, the panel will have a discretion to extent time limits to allow for this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">10) If a panel decision is to be translated into the language of a Claimant, their time for filing any appear shall run from when the translation is made available to them.
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Susan Payne<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Head of Legal Policy
<br>
<b>Valideus <br>
</b>M: +44 (0) 7971 661175<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">E:
</span><a href="mailto:susan.payne@valideus.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">susan.payne@valideus.com
</span></a><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0563C1"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> IOT <iot-bounces@icann.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>McAuley, David via IOT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 31 March 2020 15:33<br>
<b>To:</b> 'iot@icann.org' <iot@icann.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IOT] Translation Expense Handling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Susan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I appreciate Kurt’s attempt to get us through this issue, it does strike me as overly formulaic as he suggested it might be. I am more in line with Becky’s and Mike’s thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In my view we should recognize that the Bylaws set the parameters of IRP. ‘All’ proceedings are to be administered in English as the primary working language – translations services are to be a function of need, not preference.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In addition, the rules of procedure are intended to ensure fundamental fairness and due process. It seems to me that developing a rule that allows for translations in the official UN languages when needed and material
offers the better way forward at this time. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I also think Kavouss and Becky make an important point on list by reminding us that this is not the first time that the issue of translation has come up and we should check on how others handle this. The rule can be tweaked
as needed consistent with bylaws. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Best wishes to all in these challenging times.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David McAuley<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sr International Policy & Business Development Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Verisign Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">703-948-4154<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> IOT <</span><a href="mailto:iot-bounces@icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">iot-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Payne<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Disspain <</span><a href="mailto:chris.disspain@board.icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">chris.disspain@board.icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">>; Becky Burr <</span><a href="mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">becky.burr@board.icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">>;
</span><a href="mailto:iot@icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">iot@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [IOT] Translation Expense Handling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks everyone for the good discussion – looking forward to speaking later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">A reminder that the Bylaws provide for “translation services for claimants if needed”. A non-commercial entity claimant would certainly seem to have the potential
to give rise to such a need, but do we consider this would be the only type of claimant who would qualify? Not all commercial entities engaging with ICANN are large and well-funded, many are relatively modest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Susan Payne<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Head of Legal Policy
<br>
<b>Valideus <br>
</b>M: +44 (0) 7971 661175<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">E:
</span><a href="mailto:susan.payne@valideus.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">susan.payne@valideus.com
</span></a><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0563C1"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> IOT <</span><a href="mailto:iot-bounces@icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">iot-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Disspain<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 31 March 2020 15:12<br>
<b>To:</b> Becky Burr <</span><a href="mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">becky.burr@board.icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:iot@icann.org"><span lang="EN-US">iot@icann.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IOT] Translation Expense Handling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And for me also. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#9443FB">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#9443FB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#9443FB">CD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 31 Mar 2020, at 15:08, Becky Burr <<a href="mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com">BBurr@hwglaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Works for me<br>
<br>
From: IOT <<a href="mailto:iot-bounces@icann.org">iot-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Mike Silber <<a href="mailto:silber.mike@gmail.com">silber.mike@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 8:26 AM<br>
To: Becky Burr <<a href="mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org">becky.burr@board.icann.org</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:iot@icann.org">iot@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:iot@icann.org">iot@icann.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [IOT] Translation Expense Handling<br>
<br>
Hi Becky<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree with the suggestion of providing translation services in the context of a live hearing.<br>
<br>
I think the initial claim must be in English. There are enough English speaking lawyers around the world, that they can prepare an initial claim.<br>
<br>
I also think that parties may require translation of further documents. Given that complainants may be a mix of commercial and non-commercial parties, I would suggest we allow the panel the flexibility (on good cause shown) to consider a request and to determine
that ICANN make a contribution towards the reasonable translation costs of non-commercial parties.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
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On 30 Mar 2020, at 21:34, Becky Burr <<a href="mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org">becky.burr@board.icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org">mailto:becky.burr@board.icann.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
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FWIW, and understanding that this will be extremely controversial, I think that the translation issue is extremely complicated and there is a great risk that we will get this wrong without a more thorough study. My approach would be to start by providing translation
services in the context of a live hearing, but not otherwise, and undertaking a survey of how translation issues are handled in similar contexts. The IRP IOT is an ongoing body, and there is nothing that would prevent the group from revisiting the issue once
we have more information and/or more relevant experience.<br>
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On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:34 AM Kurt Pritz <<a href="mailto:kurt@kjpritz.com">kurt@kjpritz.com</a><<a href="mailto:kurt@kjpritz.com">mailto:kurt@kjpritz.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
Hi Susan and Everyone:<br>
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Here are my views on handling of translation expenses. I understand this is overly formulaic or specific beyond our needs but it might be of assistance in thinking through the creation of policy or rules for this issue.<br>
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Principles:<br>
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1) If one party makes the rules (ICANN), then those rules should construed in favor of the other party. (This has parallels in contract law.)<br>
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2) As a corollary: if one party decides the language of the proceedings (ICANN), that party should make reasonable accommodation for the other party, including bearing reasonable costs for translation.<br>
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3) “Reasonableness” should be carefully defined to provide an appropriate balance between accommodation, meeting the needs of the procedure, and avoiding abuse or unnecessary cost or procedure.<br>
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4) No party should be disadvantage by language.<br>
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With that in mind, our rules could provide that:<br>
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1) Understanding that the official language of the proceedings are in English, ICANN will pay for translation into English.<br>
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a) This includes the initial claim / pleadings.<br>
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b) This applies to all languages (not only the UN languages).<br>
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2) In order to ensure cost predictability and prevent translation costs being used to dis-advantage one party:<br>
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a) The translations will be done by ICANN retained translators.<br>
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b) Understanding that evidentiary documents can be voluminous and also be of marginal relevance, they all need not be translated. The panel might decide that an issue is already conceded, that specific evidence is duplicative, or that the evidence is not relevant
to the germane issues. The panel can make these decisions based upon the pleadings and arguments that refer to the evidence proffered. In these cases the panel can decide that the evidence need not be translated. When making this decision, the panel can indicate
to both parties why the translation is not required. (Therefore in practice, the decision to not translate evidentiary documents will be a positive indication for the non-English-speaking party.)<br>
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3) In order to ensure that a non-English speaking party is not dis-advantaged and that translations are objectively performed:<br>
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a) The ICANN-retained translators will be retained and managed by some type of double-blind process so the translators and their representatives will never speak with ICANN staff. In addition, ICANN legal staff will not be part of the engagement process.<br>
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b) The non-English-speaking party (i.e., not ICANN) can retain their own translators to provide the pleadings and evidence in English but will bear the expense for that effort. That is, the party can provide the pleadings in English of they desire.<br>
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4) Similar to the above, ICANN will pay for translations of its own pleadings and arguments into the language of the complainant, only if the complaining party used the ICANN-furnished translator to translate its documents and the complaining party requests
the translation.<br>
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5) Similar to the above ICANN will pay for translation of evidentiary documents in line with item (2b) above, only if the complaining party used the ICANN-furnished translator to translate its documents and the complaining party requests the translation<br>
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6) Similar to the above, ICANN will pay for translation of the panel decisions and questions to the parties, only if the complainant used the ICANN translator to translate its documents and the complaining party requests the translation.<br>
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7) In summary, the complaining party will decide at the outset whether to bear any translation costs or to use ICANN translators throughout. However, there should be some mechanism for the complaining party to “change its mind,” given an appropriate set of
circumstances.<br>
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I am sure there are lots of holes in this but I hope it is helpful to think through and discuss the last set of translation issues.<br>
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I am happy to answer questions or join in our next discussion about this (or ignore it if it is not useful).<br>
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Best regards,<br>
<br>
Kurt<br>
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