<div dir="ltr">Dear all,<div><br></div><div>I see numerous inconsistencies rather than consistencies in those choices made, and holding on to such choices in the end serves to reinforce pre-existing biases without any supporting data (as Mats pointed out), rather than improving the safety of the zone. So let's argue against it strongly as a GP and ask for a change of policy, if a majority of the GP is in favor! Processes were made to adopt to reality, not the other way around.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm already working on some text regarding these issues for the proposal. Please feel free to chime in.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Meikal</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 January 2018 at 17:59, Bill Jouris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39634">Hi Meikal, <br></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_40188"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_40348">I'd be fine with including something along these lines in the main text, if the panel is OK with that. What I sent out needs serious editing, but it's a start.<br></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39729"><br></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39794" dir="ltr">My best guess (and it is only a guess) on why is that the IP decided that, since they were excluding the click symbols that are homoglyphs of punctuation marks, consistency would indicate that they exclude also those click symbols which are not. On the other hand, that would have meant excluding U0294 (ʔ), which would have to be considered at least a near homoglyph of a question mark (?). But as Mats notes they have accepted that. So perhaps not. <br></div><span class=""><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39630"><span></span></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_40094"> </div><div class="m_2564487131833339595signature" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39626">Bill Jouris<br>Inside Products<br><a href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</a><br>831-659-8360<br>925-855-9512 (direct)</div><div class="m_2564487131833339595qtdSeparateBR" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_40349"><br><br></div></span><div class="m_2564487131833339595yahoo_quoted" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39839" style="display:block"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39838"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39837"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Meikal Mumin <<a href="mailto:meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de" target="_blank">meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de</a>><span class=""><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Bill Jouris <<a href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.<wbr>com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Latin GP <<a href="mailto:latingp@icann.org" target="_blank">latingp@icann.org</a>><br> </span><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, January 19, 2018 6:40 AM<div><div class="h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Latingp] New version of Proposal for inclusion Latin script letters in next version of MSR<br> </div></div></font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <div class="m_2564487131833339595y_msg_container" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39836"><br><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073"><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39835"><div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39834">Dear colleagues,<div><br clear="none"></div><div>I was trying to look for a specific reason why those code points representing click sounds have been excluded. Looking at the text of <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">MSR</span>-3, I was able to find only the following line of argumentation on page 23:</div><div><br clear="none">"In general, where code points are <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homoglyphs</span> or near <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homoglyphs</span> of code points that are not <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">PVALID</span>,</div><div>usually punctuation characters, the Integration Panel has not included such code points in the <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">MSR</span>.</div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39985">In particular, the following code points are highly confusable with or outright <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homoglyphs</span> of code</div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39845">points, such as common punctuation characters like apostrophe or exclamation mark, that are not</div><div><span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">PVALID</span> in IDNA2008 or excluded for other reasons:"</div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39966"><br clear="none"></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39833">I don't see however how the main argument that the code points we suggested are <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homogylphs</span> or near <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073" id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39881">homogylphs</span> of such characters they consider punctuation characters. That argument may be valid in the case of U01C3 or U0242, but not the three code points we suggested. I think that this stance taken by <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">IP</span> is overly conservative and reinforces certain systemic biases in the <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">DNS</span> as part of the <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">internet</span> and that the entire point of our task is precisely to put and end to such biases and therefore I would like to raise this issue again.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>I would suggest we submit a comment asking what their specific rationale for excluding these three code points is, and that clearly U01C2 for example is NOT a <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homogylph</span> or near <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homoglyph</span> of any punctuation character, just as U01C0 and U01C1. Otherwise, I would like to argue that following their approach 0069 (i.e. i) as well as any "near <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homoglyph</span>" of it is a near <span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">homogylph</span> of the exclamation mark and should be excluded equally.</div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39844"><br clear="none"></div><div>Also, I have started working on the proposal, Bill, and I would like to add your text to it and I don't think it should be an appendix.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39840">Best,</div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_39841"><br clear="none"></div><div><span class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073">Meikal</span></div></div><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073gmail_quote">On 19 January 2018 at 00:50, Bill Jouris <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.<wbr>com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073yqt0618678149" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073yqt72880"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19339"><span>Hello all, <br clear="none"></span></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19341"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19342"><span id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19427">Earlier this week, I had been drafting a possible Appendix D for our final report, to discuss the overall issue of clicks and stops. (And it is a VERY rough draft. Note, for example, that the various RFCs and other documents are not yet identified.) <br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19480"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19506"><span id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19505">With this reply from the IP, it seems like the question may be better addressed in comments on MSR-3. But I have attached what I had for those who may be interested. </span></div><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19340"> </div><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466signature" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19428">Bill Jouris<br clear="none">Inside Products<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</a><br clear="none">831-659-8360<br clear="none">925-855-9512 (direct)</div><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466qtdSeparateBR" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19742"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yahoo_quoted" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19433" style="display:block"> <div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19432" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19431" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir="ltr" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19430"> <font id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19429" size="2" face="Arial"> </font><hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Sarmad Hussain <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org" target="_blank">sarmad.hussain@icann.org</a>><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mirjana Tasić <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs" target="_blank">Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs</a>>; Latin GP <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:latingp@icann.org" target="_blank">latingp@icann.org</a>> <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> "<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:integrationpanel@icann.org" target="_blank">integrationpanel@icann.org</a>" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:integrationpanel@icann.org" target="_blank">integrationpanel@icann.org</a>><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:00 PM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Latingp] New version of Proposal for inclusion Latin script letters in next version of MSR<br clear="none"> </div> <div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466y_msg_container" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19652"><div><div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073h5"><br clear="none"><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347"><div id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19694">
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347WordSection1" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19693">
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Mirjana, Latin GP members,</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText">Please find below the message from the Integration Panel.</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"> </div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText">Regards,<br clear="none">
Sarmad</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"> </div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText">=========</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"> </div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText">The IP is pleased to acknowledge the input from the Chinese, Japanese and Latin GPs to the MSR-3 update of the Maximal Starting Repertoire. MSR-3 has just been released for
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/msr-3-2018-01-17-en" target="_blank">public comment</a> and contains an updated listing of code points as well as the rationale for including or excluding particular code points. Based on the input received, the IP has extended
the list of source sets for the Han ideographs with the net effect of adding three code points. The IP has added three Latin code points because new evidence provided invalidated the original rationale for their exclusion. An additional three Latin code points
representing clicks were not included because the original rationale for their exclusion remains valid. For details see the overview document of MSR-3.</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"> </div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText">Integration Panel</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:8.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:8.0pt"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#333333"><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#333333">MSR-3 (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/packages/lgr/msr/msr-3-wle-rules-15jan18-en.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">HTML</span></a>, <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/packages/lgr/msr/msr-3-wle-rules-15jan18-en.xml" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">XML</span></a>)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#333333"></span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:51.0pt;background:white">
<span style="color:#333333"><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#333333"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/msr-3-hangul-15jan18-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">MSR-3-Annotated-Hangul-Tables</span></a> [PDF, 1.12 MB]</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:51.0pt;background:white">
<span style="color:#333333"><span>3.<span style="font:7.0pt">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#333333"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/msr-3-han-15jan18-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">MSR-3-Annotated-Han-Tables</span></a> [ PDF, 39 MB]</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:51.0pt;background:white">
<span style="color:#333333"><span>4.<span style="font:7.0pt">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#333333"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/msr-3-non-cjk-15jan18-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">MSR-3-Annotated-non-CJK-Tables</span></a> [PDF, 2.16 MB]</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:51.0pt;background:white">
<span style="color:#333333"><span>5.<span style="font:7.0pt">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#333333"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/msr-3-overview-15jan18-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0098d5">MSR-3-Overview and Rationale</span></a> [PDF, 1.1 MB]</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347yqt8441308480" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347yqt67298"><div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> Mirjana Tasić [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs" target="_blank">Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs</a> ]
<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:07 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Sarmad Hussain <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org" target="_blank">sarmad.hussain@icann.org</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> Latin GP <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:latingp@icann.org" target="_blank">latingp@icann.org</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Ext] New version of Proposal for inclusion Latin script letters in next version of MSR
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Dear Sarmad,</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">After further investigation of Latin Repertoire, Latin GP has found one additional code point which is not included in our previous proposal for inclusion in the new version of MSR.</span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal" id="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516301374309_19692"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Please find enclosed the new version of our
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" name="m_2564487131833339595_m_1844795707275784466__gjdgxs"></a>Proposal for inclusion Latin script letters in the next version of MSR.</span></div>
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<div class="m_2564487131833339595yiv8390343073m_1844795707275784466yiv0680950347MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Regards Mirjana</span></div></div>
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