<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5495"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_6308">Yet my recollection is rather otherwise. What I recall is:</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5601"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5817">1) While several of us on the Variants working group argued for a "relatively liberal" approach, you insisted on an extremely narrow criteria. Since you were Chair, that's what got recorded.<br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5819"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5818">2) Eventually, we submitted questions to the IP. Questions that you (very skillfully!) worded so as to get the response that you wanted. <br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5820"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5923">3) We had further arguments, based on increased familiarity with previous ICANN documents, on expert opinions from the linguists among us, and on individual discussions that some of us had the IP members - who expressed rather different views that you got previously. <br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5924"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5923">4) Repeat of #2</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_6132"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5923">5) The current discussion. <br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5990"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5923"><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5991" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_6030">I share the feeling of </span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5923">déjà vu. Perhaps this time we can achieve something better. Alternatively, you can write the report on Variants that you so clearly want, and some of the other members of the working group can write a separate report which reflects our views. Give the IP complete packages to review. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5564"><span></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5513"> </div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5558"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5563">Bill Jouris</div>Inside Products<br>bill.jouris@insidethestack.com<br>831-659-8360<br>925-855-9512 (direct)</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5969" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5968"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5967"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5966"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5985" size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs>; Meikal Mumin <meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de>; Latin GP <LatinGP@icann.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, June 1, 2018 8:15 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Latingp] Variant cross-script analysis worksheets<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5970"><br><div id="yiv2813984843"><style>#yiv2813984843 #yiv2813984843 --
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5971">All, </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5974"> </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1527872709535_5975">I cannot help but think this is déjà vu. We started out very liberal as to our approach for variants in the Latin script and this panel submitted its proposal to IP for review in two separate occasions,
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9jf1ThZFL4Ga0hhTTZndk1JNVE/view?ths=true">
early</a> and <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RNXPxAsquUJSQ5jRimMYjz3Es_sX-f1JRhi4Cbwdegc/edit#heading=h.d488q8e5wxm4">
mid</a> 2017. The IP provided its feedback in those two opportunities (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aMLHw5ahtqmkB07zOJacvRUX-BHjXxXD-u9E9Beb4FQ/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs">March 22</a> and
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ra8odr5ksd82goz/Principles%20for%20repertoire%20and%20variants%20-%20Feedback%20from%20IP.pdf?dl=0">
October 18</a>) and the variant sub-group adjusted course based on the feedback received. During the Brussels workshop in Jan 2018 (a year later after work started) the same questions were raised again (by newcomers), so we decided to have an impromptu phone
call with the IP to have them explain their guidance. They came back with the same response, and provided examples to that end. This is what led us to rewrite the
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IrT_kfildf1SumYUqjkaIkMT-TYx9IRqtuPMV4YvKXU/edit#heading=h.5xs6hwfrrh41">
principles for variant inclusion</a>. </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal">Dennis</div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843yqt6973832239" id="yiv2813984843yqt47764"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic@rnids.rs><br clear="none">
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 2:40 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To: </b>Meikal Mumin <meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de>, Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com><br clear="none">
<b>Cc: </b>Latin GP <LatinGP@icann.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Variant cross-script analysis worksheets</span></div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">Dear Colleagues,</div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">My opinion on this matter is the same as Meikal stated in this mail. We should make our own interpretation of rules and guidelines and stick to it. In the further discussion with IP we could modify our findings
if there is enough reasons for it.</div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">Regards Mirjana</div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Latin GP <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Meikal Mumin <meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de><br clear="none">
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 10:00<br clear="none">
<b>To: </b>"Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com><br clear="none">
<b>Cc: </b>Latin GP <LatinGP@icann.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Latingp] Variant cross-script analysis worksheets</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">Dear colleuages, </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">personally, I think we should conduct our own data-driven analysis based on our own interpretation of the rules and guidelines, and then ask IP for a review. After all, we are the community and it is our choice
- they are only the ones to judge wether we meet the common criteria. That would be in line we the view they expressed, that the GPs are to guide IP.</div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">Best,<br clear="none">
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Meikal</div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843yqt6973832239" id="yiv2813984843yqt94192"><div class="yiv2813984843MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;">On 31 May 2018 at 15:14, Tan Tanaka, Dennis <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com">dtantanaka@verisign.com</a>> wrote:</div></div>
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It would be helpful if we could get the IP to issue an statement on the points you are raising below.
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-Dennis</div>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Bill Jouris <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Reply-To: </b>"</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">" <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 5:24 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To: </b>Dennis Tan Tanaka <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">dtantanaka@verisign.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>, Meikal Mumin <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>,
Michael Bauland <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Michael.Bauland@knipp.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:Michael.Bauland@knipp.de"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Michael.Bauland@knipp.de</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>, Sarmad Hussain <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">sarmad.hussain@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Cc: </b>Latin GP <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:LatinGP@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:LatinGP@icann.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">LatinGP@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Variant cross-script analysis worksheets</span></div>
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And yet, in speaking with members of the IP (at San Juan), on the subject of the Least Astonishment Principle, what they said was "We are looking to the Generation Panels for guidance." </div>
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And said further (on the matter of the breve and caron) "When I am typing something that includes one of them, I have to copy and paste because I can't tell which I am lookIng at." In short, while the two diacritics are clearly not identical, at least with
sufficient magnification, as far as he was concerned there was no reason that they could not be classified by us as varients. </div>
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What constitutes "identical in appearance" depends enormously on just how much magnification is assumed. The rationale for assuming anything larger than 12 point type is not at all obvious. </div>
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Bill</div>
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<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature">Sent from Yahoo Mail on Androi</a>d </div>
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<span style="">On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Tan Tanaka, Dennis</span></div>
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<span style=""><</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com"><span style="">dtantanaka@verisign.com</span></a><span style="">>
wrote:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843m205254556420450350yiv4522631482msonormal" style="margin-left:1.5in;"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Meikal Mumin <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">meikal.mumin@uni-koeln.de</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 10:14 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To: </b>Bill Jouris <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>, Dennis Tan Tanaka <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">dtantanaka@verisign.com</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>,
Michael Bauland <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Michael.Bauland@knipp.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:Michael.Bauland@knipp.de"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Michael.Bauland@knipp.de</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">>, Sarmad Hussain <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">sarmad.hussain@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Cc: </b>Latin GP <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:LatinGP@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:LatinGP@icann.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">LatinGP@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">><br clear="none">
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Variant cross-script analysis worksheets</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;">My conclusion is that it is more complex than reducing things to "</span>homoglyphs<span style="font-size:13.5pt;">" but I do not think that (at least linguistically) we have a strong definition of<span class="yiv2813984843m205254556420450350yiv4522631482apple-converted-space"> </span></span>homoglyphs</div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843m205254556420450350yiv4522631482msonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;">On homoglyphs the Latin GP has received the following guidance from IP, in writing and verbally (during the Brussels workshop)</div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843m205254556420450350yiv4522631482msonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;">“In the context of the Root Zone, the Procedure is quite clear in that it considers simple similarity of appearance to be outside the scope of the
Root Zone LGR. In admitting exact homoglyphs, the IP has been making the argument that ‘e’ in Latin (U+0065) and ‘е’ in Cyrillic(U+0435) are not just visually indistinguishable, but that their distinct code points effectively represent a disunification by
script property.”</span></i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;"> – Email from IP to Latin GP of 18 October 2017 in response to our draft Principles for Inclusion and Exclusion of Code Points in Latin Script for the Root Zone, and in particular to our Analysis of
Variants in the Latin Script for the Root Zone.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv2813984843m205254556420450350yiv4522631482msonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;">“The kinds of variants to be defined in the Root Zone LGR are limited to homoglyphs, which are characters with essentially identical appearance
by design, instead of merely similar appearance.”</span></i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;"> – Integration Panel feedback to Latin GP proposal of 22 March 2017.</span></div></div>
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