<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3598" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3556">The way I read Dennis' comments above (and what I took from the discussion in Brussels) was that he was arguing that the two ligatures were not variants of each other. Even though they clearly fit the criteria of "</span><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3460"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;white-space:pre-wrap;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3557">Glyphs nearly identical due to font design"</span></span> If I have misunderstood the intent there, my apologies. <br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3455"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3656"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3596"> </div></div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3553">Bill Jouris<br>Inside Products<br>bill.jouris@insidethestack.com<br>831-659-8360<br>925-855-9512 (direct)</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3670"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3674" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3673"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3672"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3671"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3679" size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Meikal Mumin <meikal@mumin.de><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org>; "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:10 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Latingp] AE, OE, and Ligatures<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1550007495578_3678"><br><div id="yiv3496077941"><title></title><div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, sans-serif;">Dear colleagues,
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<div>To chime into that debate:</div>
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<div>The visual analysis whereby the two glyphs of the ligatures “æ” and “œ” are confusable across a significant number of fonts is language independent, since irrespective of the language of the user or the resources available at an IDN, the rendering of the url may make use of such fonts. The significant number seems independent of the assumed spread of use of single fonts, which we would have to establish in any case (and I doubt we could do that).</div>
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<div>Meanwhile any analysis whereby the ligatures are interchangeable with the sequences the same consist of is language dependent. Since we had many similar discussions in ArabGP, let me remind the GP that we are building a ruleset for the root zone, which applies to the entire script-using community, since IDNs do not have a language property. Accordingly, we should not apply language specific rules across languages (unless code-points are restricted in use to few or single language communities, such as German ß - which is clearly not the case with a, o, and e) and therefore it seems irrelevant if e.g. French users consider the consider the ligature “œ” as equivalent to the sequence o+e or English users consider the ligature “æ” as equivalent to the sequence a+e, unless we can demonstrate the use across a significant part of the script using community, that is across languages.</div>
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<div>Hopefully this helps to settle this debate from a methodological point of view.</div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941matchFont">Best,<br style="font-size:14px;font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, sans-serif;" clear="none">
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Meikal</div>
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<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, sans-serif;">Am 12. Feb. 2019, 14:45 +0100 schrieb Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp <latingp@icann.org>:<br clear="none">
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal">On the contrary. Let me explain:</div>
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<ol style="margin-top:0in;" start="1" type="1"><li class="yiv3496077941MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;">Our “visual” methodology consists in a 4-point scale that assigns a value to the visual similarity of a pair. Each pair of characters is rendered in three different font types. We agreed on Arial, Times and Courier to do such comparison. Each pair is then score independently (e.g. 1 = Identical; 2 = Nearly identical; 3 = Distinguishable; 4 = Different).</li><li class="yiv3496077941MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;">Our “non-visual” methodology is looking for to prove or disprove the notion that certain handwriting customs are transferred to font design. For this analysis we picked the website wordmark.it to analyze a large number of font types.</li></ol>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal">The argument about visual similarity of the ligatures “æ” and “œ” is logically under the “visual” methodology. So, if anything, I’m advocating for us to stick with our methodology and not to apply ad-hoc criteria on a case by case basis.</div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal">Dennis</div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com><br clear="none">
<b>Reply-To:</b> Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com><br clear="none">
<b>Date:</b> Monday, February 11, 2019 at 4:09 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] AE, OE, and Ligatures</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">And yet, in our previous work, we considered high visual similarity <i id="yiv3496077941yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1549919237833_3376">in a significant number of fonts</i> in workmark to be sufficient cause to consider something a variant. <br clear="none">
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">So are you arguing for changing our criteria? </span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Bill Jouris<br clear="none">
Inside Products<br clear="none">
bill.jouris@insidethestack.com<br clear="none">
831-659-8360<br clear="none">
925-855-9512 (direct)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;">"Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org><br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> "Michael.Bauland@knipp.de" <Michael.Bauland@knipp.de>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 11, 2019 12:54 PM<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Latingp] AE, OE, and Ligatures</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"></span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">Looking again at the visual evidence, I believe this is not a strong case for variants. But it may be a candidate for visual similarity.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">From a visual standpoint I don’t see it as a clear-cut case. Doing a comparison of the code points "æ" "œ" using wordmark.it, the great majority of fonts show them very distinguishable (e.g. Arial: æ œ,</span> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Times;color:black;">Times</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">:</span> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Times;color:black;">æ œ</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">,</span> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black;">Courier:</span> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black;">æ œ,</span> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">Calibri: æ œ).</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">From an orthography viewpoint, I don’t see good support, but of course, this is only <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_orthography#Ligatures">one</a> data point.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">-Dennis</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;">On 2/11/19, 9:16 AM, "Latingp on behalf of Michael Bauland" <latingp-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Michael.Bauland@knipp.de> wrote:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Hi Bill,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> thanks for the summary.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> I agree with you if purely looking at the visual confusability issue.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> However, with ae vs. æ and oe vs. œ the issue is not about visual</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> sameness, at least that's what the IP argued on our phone call. They</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> said that in most languages ae and æ have the same meaning and could be</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> exchanged. I can only talk for German, and there it might be ok to write</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> ae instead of the ligature but certainly not the other way round. But to</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> be honest, I personally never used such a word in German.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Therefore the reason to make ae and its ligature variants would be</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> purely semantic. And then we have a problem: how to decide which variant</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> relation is stronger? If all are visual, it's (more or less) easy to</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> decide which visual similarity is stronger, but there's no metric to</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> compare visual and semantic similarities with each other.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Cheers,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Michael</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de</span></div>
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<div class="yiv3496077941MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:white;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue;color:black;"> Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728</span></div>
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