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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/5/2019 5:54 PM, Bill Jouris
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
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<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi Asmus, </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Thanks for the quick
response. Comments inline below.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp6eb4e36fsignature">Bill Jouris<br>
Inside Products<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</a><br>
831-659-8360<br>
925-855-9512 (direct)</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"> On Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 08:06:08 PM
GMT-5, Asmus Freytag <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:asmusf@ix.netcom.com"><asmusf@ix.netcom.com></a> wrote: </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Bill,</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">in continuation of our discussion, here's
how I would have replied if you had asked this in the
session:<br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">First, you write: "The ideal solution, of
course, would be for the Unicode folks to create new
pre-composed code points for these problem cases. But
I suspect there is little chance of them doing so
before our report is due. So, we will have to figure
out an alternate approach to recommend."</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Unicode has an explicit policy of not
adding any more precomposed code points for the kinds
of combinations considered. So there's a definite
answer that such will not happen. Ever.<br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
Good to know what Unicode's policy is on this. I
wonder why, given that they have a bunch of
pre-composed code points which are not used in any of
what we fondly believe are the major languages using
the Latin alphabet. Presumably they had their reasons
for choosing the ones that they did. </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
If those reasons include indications that we missed a
major language or three that we should have included,
that would be useful to know ASAP. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>==> The policy is simply not to encode anything that would get
a canonical decomposition. Details in either the Unicode Standard
Core Specification or UAX#15. There may also be an FAQ out there
on Normalization. This forces vendors to support combinations if
they want to support certain languages and you see that effect.
The technology continues to get better.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">I would say that Courier New is perhaps
an unfortunate choice of reference font. Some other
people may have more details, or actual knowledge of
what MSFT's plan is for that font, but it is my
impression that the Courier New font was state of the
art in the past, and it certainly looks like has not
been maintained actively to cover more languages (and
frankly, I can't recall seeing it much recently).</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
We'll need to discuss whether to shift to a different
mono-width font for out analysis. On one hand, there
would be a lot of work to consider redoing -- which
would take time that we probably don't have. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>==> Correct, you do *not* have the time.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> On the
other hand, there's something to be said for using the
same set of fonts throughout the analysis. Perhaps we
can decide that one exception, for the
non-pre-composed cases, is the least bad solution. As
I say, we'll have to thrash it out.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
==> Correct, you can substitute a font in ongoing analysis (but
you don't have much time for that, either - and the IP, being
somewhat knowledgable in the Latin script, do not anticipate a large
set of in-script variants. Most cases would surely be "confusables"
and can be documented separately (such informative documentation can
also be prepared during the public comment period).<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
There are other more recent monowidth fonts such as
Lucida Console. See screen shot at the end. I've also
appended the results for Segoe UI which is the font
used in my browser (Firefox on Windows7). <br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
Clearly we have been handicapped by none of us being
expert in which fonts are growing obsolete and which
are more current. As you say, the universe of Latin
fonts is enormous. Clearly we couldn't look at
anything like the whole. For example, we totally
ignored all the cursive-based fonts -- which would
have, among other things, generated a bunch more
variants. But we are where we are at the moment. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>==> If you had told us that you were looking at cursive fonts,
we would have probably had something to say about - in our view
that is taking the issue too far. by far.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">There's a near infinite universe of
Latin-script fonts, and many do not attempt to cover
the entire script. If we include hyperlinks in text
(those showing the URL) there is no way we can predict
which fonts a user will see a domain name in.</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">We have three choices here:</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">(1) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in <u>any</u>
font</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">(2) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in any
"well-known" font</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">(3) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in common user
interface fonts: Windows, iOS, Android and all
browsers if they don't use platform fonts (latest
version)</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Because of the way Latin-script fonts
tend to subset, there's no way that (1) is a
reasonable choice in my view.<br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
Absolutely agree. Or even possible. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>==> Good.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">The problem with (2) is that some
"well-known" fonts are tied to early versions of a
given platform and they *may* not be maintained any
longer - while some of them are still widely used,
they have been replaced for UI purposes by more modern
/ more capable fonts. Effectively, they may be
retained as legacy - so that you can still view and
edit documents that were created in them. Less
well-known fonts (such as Arial Unicode MS) may not
have made the cut and aren't routinely available any
more. So the fact that a font is well-known increases
the likelihood that it is a legacy font. Taken
together, these considerations would argue against
(2).</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
As noted, we would need outside advice on which fonts
are both "well-known" and modern (i.e. not legacy) in
order to attempt 2. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>==> In that case, I think it's good we are not doing (2).<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">That leaves (3) as a "reasonable" choice
for making a cut. I know you'd appreciate that choice
of term :). It is also effectively forward-looking,
because more support tends to be added to newer
fonts/systems and that process looks like it would
only continue.<br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">By all indication, more modern text fonts
like Calibri, and modern UI fonts like Segoe UI do not
have issues with these code points, and I simply can't
imagine Google's Noto fonts would either.</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
I'm not quite clear what you are recommending that we
do here. Are you suggesting that we go back and redo
using these three fonts? Or something else? <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>==> I think your absolute and unquestioning first priority is
finishing a public draft. You have done enough work and have the
feedback from the IP (and will get some more next week) to
complete that task.</p>
<p>==> If, during public comment, somebody can demonstrate an
issue using a recent phone, browser or OS, you can take corrective
action in the final draft and remove some code points before
publication. I don't expect you will find any cases, because the
modern OSs and their users interface fonts are very good in
handling combining sequences.</p>
<p>==> The recommendation follows from the way (3) is worded.
It's not worded as "start a research project to find possible
issues in an unspecified list of fonts, but conversely: act, if
and when you have intelligence (from whatever source) of a clear
defect."<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Looking at the screen shot in context
with the reasoning above, it seems to me that we are
good, but if the Latin GP wants to document the issue
(that many Latin fonts do subset the range of code
points/glyphs/combinations that they support), that
would be OK (if it doesn't otherwise delay the
project). <span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
OK, notwithstanding the above, I'm reading this as
saying that </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">1) we
can stick with the fonts we are using, and </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">2) we
can continue including the combination glyphs that I
was concerned about, regardless of their issues in
Courier New</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family:
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>>
If that is not a correct understanding, please let me
know.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>==> Correct; at the moment you have no indication that the
combining sequences should be rejected (item (3)) and for a quick
check for variants your 3 fonts should be fine. If you could add
Segoe UI as a 4th column in your tests, and can do that cheaply
and quickly, go for it. But please come back telling use that <u>there
are very few</u> in-script variants beyond shwa and underlining.
:)</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> In Word
(Windows 10), I get </span><b style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42);
font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.6933px;
font-family: Courier New; color: red;">ɛ̱̈</span></b><span
style="font-family: Lucida Console; font-size: 11pt;
line-height: 15.6933px; color: black;">e </span><span
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.6933px; color:
black;">rendered as problematic even in Lucida Console --
although it renders fine in Firefox for email. Just FYI.
Inconsistency among word processing softwares is a real
pain, but one we will probably never get away from.</span><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</p>
<p>==> Looks fine in Word in Windows 7. Go figure.</p>
<p>==> While Lucida Console is newer than Courier New, the use of
monowidth fonts is problematic for so many reasons that basing the
LGR design on their shortcomings is not something I would
contemplate. </p>
<p>==> All we can do is hope that the technology is going
forward.</p>
<p>==> Let's focus on getting this wrapped up as expeditiously as
possible.<br>
</p>
<p>A./<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:157635614.179904.1573005267071@mail.yahoo.com">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted_3475377015"
class="ydp91a0d021yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);">
<div style="">
<div id="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901" style="">
<div style="">
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">A./</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">PS: I have blind copied the other IP
members<br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Screenshot:</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;">Instead of Arial, the screenshot shows
Calibri in the left column, d</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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