<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp6eb4e36fyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi Asmus, </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Thanks for the quick response. Comments inline below.</div><div><br></div><div class="ydp6eb4e36fsignature">Bill Jouris<br>Inside Products<br>bill.jouris@insidethestack.com<br>831-659-8360<br>925-855-9512 (direct)</div></div>
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On Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 08:06:08 PM GMT-5, Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Bill,</div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">in continuation of our discussion,
here's how I would have replied if you had asked this in the
session:<br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">First, you write: "The ideal solution,
of course, would be for the Unicode folks to create new
pre-composed code points for these problem cases. But I suspect
there is little chance of them doing so before our report is due.
So, we will have to figure out an alternate approach to
recommend."</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Unicode has an explicit policy of not
adding any more precomposed code points for the kinds of
combinations considered. So there's a definite answer that such
will not happen. Ever.<br>
</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> Good to know what Unicode's policy is on this. I wonder why, given that they have a bunch of pre-composed code points which are not used in any of what we fondly believe are the major languages using the Latin alphabet. Presumably they had their reasons for choosing the ones that they did. </div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> If those reasons include indications that we missed a major language or three that we should have included, that would be useful to know ASAP. </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">I would say that Courier New is perhaps
an unfortunate choice of reference font. Some other people may
have more details, or actual knowledge of what MSFT's plan is for
that font, but it is my impression that the Courier New font was
state of the art in the past, and it certainly looks like has not
been maintained actively to cover more languages (and frankly, I
can't recall seeing it much recently).</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> We'll need to discuss whether to shift to a different mono-width font for out analysis. On one hand, there would be a lot of work to consider redoing -- which would take time that we probably don't have. On the other hand, there's something to be said for using the same set of fonts throughout the analysis. Perhaps we can decide that one exception, for the non-pre-composed cases, is the least bad solution. As I say, we'll have to thrash it out.</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
There are other more recent monowidth fonts such as Lucida
Console. See screen shot at the end. I've also appended the
results for Segoe UI which is the font used in my browser (Firefox
on Windows7). <br>
</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> Clearly we have been handicapped by none of us being expert in which fonts are growing obsolete and which are more current. As you say, the universe of Latin fonts is enormous. Clearly we couldn't look at anything like the whole. For example, we totally ignored all the cursive-based fonts -- which would have, among other things, generated a bunch more variants. But we are where we are at the moment. </div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">There's a near infinite universe of
Latin-script fonts, and many do not attempt to cover the entire
script. If we include hyperlinks in text (those showing the URL)
there is no way we can predict which fonts a user will see a
domain name in.</div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">We have three choices here:</div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">(1) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in <u>any</u> font</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">(2) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in any "well-known" font</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">(3) remove from the Latin LGR all code
points/sequences not rendered reliably in common user interface
fonts: Windows, iOS, Android and all browsers if they don't use
platform fonts (latest version)</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Because of the way Latin-script fonts
tend to subset, there's no way that (1) is a reasonable choice in
my view.<br>
</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> Absolutely agree. Or even possible. </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">The problem with (2) is that some
"well-known" fonts are tied to early versions of a given platform
and they *may* not be maintained any longer - while some of them
are still widely used, they have been replaced for UI purposes by
more modern / more capable fonts. Effectively, they may be
retained as legacy - so that you can still view and edit documents
that were created in them. Less well-known fonts (such as Arial
Unicode MS) may not have made the cut and aren't routinely
available any more. So the fact that a font is well-known
increases the likelihood that it is a legacy font. Taken together,
these considerations would argue against (2).</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> As noted, we would need outside advice on which fonts are both "well-known" and modern (i.e. not legacy) in order to attempt 2. </div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">That leaves (3) as a "reasonable"
choice for making a cut. I know you'd appreciate that choice of
term :). It is also effectively forward-looking, because more
support tends to be added to newer fonts/systems and that process
looks like it would only continue.<br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">By all indication, more modern text
fonts like Calibri, and modern UI fonts like Segoe UI do not have
issues with these code points, and I simply can't imagine Google's
Noto fonts would either.</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> I'm not quite clear what you are recommending that we do here. Are you suggesting that we go back and redo using these three fonts? Or something else? </div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Looking at the screen shot in context
with the reasoning above, it seems to me that we are good, but if
the Latin GP wants to document the issue (that many Latin fonts do
subset the range of code points/glyphs/combinations that they
support), that would be OK (if it doesn't otherwise delay the
project). <span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> OK, notwithstanding the above, I'm reading this as saying that </div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">1) we can stick with the fonts we are using, and </div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">2) we can continue including the combination glyphs that I was concerned about, regardless of their issues in Courier New</div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> If that is not a correct understanding, please let me know.</div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">A./</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">PS: I have blind copied the other IP
members<br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Screenshot:</div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Instead of Arial, the screenshot shows
Calibri in the left column, despite the header.<br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><img src="cid:CqaWlyMMm4HtjR2obAVP" alt="" style="width: 100%; max-width: 800px;"></div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><img src="cid:ek06CyDZFIYcKqniNeK8" alt="" style="width: 100%; max-width: 800px;"></div>
<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">>> In Word (Windows 10), I get </span><b style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.6933px; font-family: Courier New; color: red;">ɛ̱̈</span></b><span style="font-family: Lucida Console; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.6933px; color: black;">e </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.6933px; color: black;">rendered as problematic even in Lucida Console -- although it renders fine in Firefox for email. Just FYI. Inconsistency among word processing softwares is a real pain, but one we will probably never get away from.</span><br></div></div><br></div><div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">On 11/5/2019 10:32 AM, Sarmad Hussain
wrote:<br>
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<div class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901WordSection1">
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal">FYI; please see below.</p>
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal">Regards,<br>
Sarmad</p>
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Bill Jouris
<a class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><bill.jouris@insidethestack.com></a><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Bill Jouris
<a class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><bill.jouris@insidethestack.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, November 4, 2019 at 6:03 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Sarmad Hussain
<a class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><sarmad.hussain@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Ext] Stacking</span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Hi Sarmad, </span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;"> </span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">In speaking with Asmus after the meeting
today, he indicated an interest in seeing what we are
looking at with stacking. Perhaps you could share the
attached with him, or even the whole IP -- with the
caveat that this is me reporting on what I found, and
the GP has not yet decided what should be done in
these cases. </span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Perhaps the IP will have some ideas on how
to deal with these cases.</span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;"> </span></p>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Thanks</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Bill Jouris<br>
Inside Products<br>
<a class="ydp91a0d021yiv2349304901moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bill.jouris@insidethestack.com</a><br>
831-659-8360<br>
925-855-9512 (direct)</span></p>
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