[RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Jun 5 15:20:59 UTC 2018
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties
involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by
the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking
contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to
no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year
is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of
these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of
contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy
accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve.
This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be
even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined
processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting
services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
>
> Hi Volker,
>
> I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
>
> 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
>
> 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or
> really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene?
> And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a
> loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would
> be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m
> here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
>
> Lili
>
> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM
> *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN at interpol.int>
> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt at icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of
> Privacy/Proxy Services
>
> Hi Lili,
>
> 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of
> privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that
> matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service
> providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other
> field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures
> sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations
> are adhered to, which we should expect.
>
> 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at
> length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of
> the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most
> of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain
> names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of
> being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue,
> the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse
> contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an
> additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by
> means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to
> digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
>
> 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and
> enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese
> authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are
> not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China.
> I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role
> to play in this issue.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
>
> Hi Volker,
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it
> out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is
> there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required
> court order issued by competent authority to have access to the
> information according to current PPSAI framework.
>
> For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the
> legacy.
>
> For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the
> business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing,
> malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or
> gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese
> legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them
> down if there are victims of China.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lili
>
> *From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM
> *To:* rds-whois2-rt at icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report
> of Privacy/Proxy Services
>
> Hi Lili,
>
> thank you for your comments.
>
> 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy
> shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly
> conduct a study without violating the terms of the service.
> Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained
> from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the
> privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint,
> and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed
> data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most
> domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in
> a UDRP.
>
> 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing
> customers is a near impossible task.
>
> 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions
> therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I
> could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not
> necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and
> registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So
> what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while
> may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic
> being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a
> provider of such services.
>
> I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
>
> Volker
>
> Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
>
> Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
>
> I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page
> (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717)
> and step in with my concerns:
>
> 1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain
> names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible.
> And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the
> Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s
> comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on
> customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and
> unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of
> registered name holders, and how those should be managed in
> the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a
> customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from
> responsibilities.
>
> 2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that
> utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will
> it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
>
> 3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if
> there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P
> service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated
> the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really
> need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
>
> A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lili
>
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> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
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> Best regards,
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>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>
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> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> --------------------------------------------
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> Best regards,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
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> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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