[RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Cathrin.BAUER-BULST at ec.europa.eu
Cathrin.BAUER-BULST at ec.europa.eu
Mon Jun 11 15:25:45 UTC 2018
Dear all,
Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below.
I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome.
Best regards
Cathrin
From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM
To: SUN Lili
Cc: rds-whois2-rt at icann.org
Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report.
The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data.
If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase?
Volker
Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker and all,
I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team.
Thanks,
Lili
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM
To: SUN Lili <L.SUN at interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN at interpol.int>
Cc: rds-whois2-rt at icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours.
I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM
To: SUN Lili <L.SUN at interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN at interpol.int>
Cc: rds-whois2-rt at icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM
To: SUN Lili <L.SUN at interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN at interpol.int>
Cc: rds-whois2-rt at icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM
To: rds-whois2-rt at icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
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Best regards,
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
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Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
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Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
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- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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