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<p>Hi Lili,</p>
<p>1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility
levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR,
for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of
privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to
verify one other field in the same manner as required by
registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is
maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we
should expect.</p>
<p>2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated
at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the
gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer
domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA,
whereas the domain names registered before that time have a
significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive
purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now
also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also
introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable
third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar.
So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this
should be a mnor issue.</p>
<p>3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application
and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to
Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign
nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will
likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great
cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN
Lili:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
Volker,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thank
you for your response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For
1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it
out, for the common sense is that the reliable information
is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are
required court order issued by competent authority to have
access to the information according to current PPSAI
framework.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For
2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the
legacy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For
3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on
the business model, the content hosted could be anything,
phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is
relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal
according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities
responsibility to take them down if there are victims of
China.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lili<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> RDS-WHOIS2-RT
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org">mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Volker Greimann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org">rds-whois2-rt@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the
Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Hi Lili,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>thank you for your comments. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a
privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists
to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the
service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could
be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with
cases where the privacy service removes itself on the
occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on
the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this
sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy
services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those
existing customers is a near impossible task.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the
assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of
illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while
distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a
privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve
such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the
redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains
being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the
highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of
such services.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Volker<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear
Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki
page (<a
href="https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717</a>)
and step in with my concerns:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To
the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain
names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is
invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be
dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I
strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting
periodic due diligence checks on customer contact
information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous
guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered
name holders, and how those should be managed in the
privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a
customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from
responsibilities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There
is no indication about the legacy domain names that
utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited.
Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Like
the example I gave during the 2<sup>nd</sup> F2F meeting,
if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place,
P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I
elaborated the example in a word document (see attached).
Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain
industry?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A
response from this subgroup is much appreciated.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lili</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org" moz-do-not-send="true">RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt" moz-do-not-send="true">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Rechtsabteilung -<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<pre>Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- legal department -<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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