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<p>Hi Susan,<br>
</p>
<br>
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cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">3.2.1.1 - Analysis, second paragraph:
In my operative experience, the main reason for the
cancellation or suspension of a domain name after receiving
an inaccuracy complaint is nowhere near as nefarious as the
subgroup assumed, but rather the fact that the registrant
did not respond to the request of the registrar to either
confirm or update his data. This can be due to the contact
data on file being outdated, a reseller failing to forward
the inquiry,<font color="#ff0000"> This is an issue we
should review if the reseller is not following through
which would constitute noncompliance by Registrar. </font> the
registrant failing to respond (mail ignored/seen as
spam/overlooked/mailbox not main mailbox/etc) and things
like that. As the </div>
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My point is that we reach out to the registrant and do not receive a
response. Why that is would be speculation. I just gave a few
examples I have heard of.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">RAA states unequivocally that a
non-response within a certain time and as we do not have the
time and ressources to chase after each such registrant,
this usually causes: first the deactivation, then a call
from an irate customer and then the re-instatement of the
domain. <font color="#ff0000">Registrants often do not
understand their responsibilities when registering a
domain name which is something more communication by the
Registrar could alleviate. </font> Of course, many
registrants do not even notice the deactivation, for example
if the domain is parked or unused.</div>
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We can only communicate so much before it becomes viewed as spam and
results in all our mails being discarded.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<p>The sad fact of the matter is that this contractual
requirement causes at least as much harm for the
registrants as it does provide benefits for those
interested in more accuracy. <font color="#ff0000">I
absolutely disagree with this statement and would
fall into category of you making an assumption, as
you have accused me in the following paragraphs,
unless you can provide hard data on this. </font><br>
</p>
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<font color="#ff0000"><font color="#000000">Here is an article based
on a study done by the RRSG regarding suspended domain names due
to the RAA reqs:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks">http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks</a><br>
</font><br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<p> </p>
<p>I hope that we can update the analysis to move out of
the realm of speculation <font color="#ff0000">did
you read all the ARS reports? </font> and more into
the realm of </p>
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I reviewed all of them, but I have not read every word therein due
to time constraints. The latest one was a good read though, with
very good contactibility numbers. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<p>experience based evidence. <font color="#ff0000">My
analysis is experience based but not YOUR
experience. The only domain names I would bother
to file an inaccuracy report on are those that are
already acting in an abusive manner. I have no
interest in a domain name record that is not
abusive. </font></p>
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That is ther main problem of perspective, since you will from your
line of work see more problematic domains than I would, skewing the
perceived size of the issue. If you only look for abusers, that is
what you will find. I see the by-catch as well, the domain owners
trapped by the requirements that have done nothing wrong with their
use of the domain but still got caught for having problematic data
in whois. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<p><font color="#ff0000"> </font>And by that, I am not
disputing that there are also cases where the record
was intentionally false. But in my experience, these
make up less than 10% of the cases I see. <font
color="#ff0000">Please provide data on your 10%
assumption. </font><br>
</p>
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This is entirely based on experience of looking at our whois
complaints queue over time, as I stated above. In most cases the
problem with the record was a result of an oversight, outdated data,
or other issues, not a malicious use of false data. These exist too,
but do not make out the bulkl of complaints we receive for incorrect
data.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> As for the issues
following from that earlier assumption: While the
registrar has the ability to unsuspend at any time,
ICANN compliance will follow up on such cases and demand
the same type of evidence they would ask for in a case
where the registrant updated his whois details. So i am
not really sure this actually is an issue...<font
color="#ff0000">We should clarify with compliance
whether this is an issue. </font><br>
<br>
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Agreed.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Second issue: I am
not actually sure that there are more suspensions for
abuse than for nonpayment for example. What data was
used to determine that statement that "most of them
(occur) for abusive activity"? <font color="#ff0000">My
personal experience and analysis but if a registrant
never steps forward to rectify inaccurate data on a
suspended domain name please let me know what other
conclusions could be made. </font>Or is this </div>
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I gave numerous examples of why a domain may have been suspended
that have nothing to do with abusive use. <br>
But the main issue is that personal experience is not a goodf basis
for an overall statement and I accept that this applies to my own
perspective as well. We should base our statements more on cold,
hard data, not just experience.<br>
So the above statement should read: <b>"with an unkown percentage
of them occurring due to abusive activity</b>".<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">speculation and
assumptions again? <font color="#ff0000">I worked very
hard on reviewing all the reports and developing a
sound analysis so let's change the rhetoric and stop
the name calling. It is not fruitful or helpful.
This may be a language barrier but I take offense that
your analysis is correct and my is speculation and
assumptions. <br>
</font></div>
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As I stated above, my perspective is differentm, but likely biassed
as well. _That_ is why we need to base our statements on data, not
just experience. See also: Analogy of the 10 blind men and the
elephant. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <font color="#ff0000">My flight is taking off so will
have to finish my responses once the wifi works. </font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000"><span style="caret-color:
rgb(255, 0, 0);">I am very concerned that I will not
be on this call so that we could have had a reasonable
dialogue. <br>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
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No rush, we will have time to discuss later. I am fine with neutral
language and fact based statements. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJjzonFrNPZmHJiGPbj0EPHTMbQrhLyT5Z8Ot3gaxtThAyxusg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><font color="#ff0000"><span style="caret-color:
rgb(255, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000"><span style="caret-color:
rgb(255, 0, 0);">Susan </span></font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><br>
I also note that the statement that the inaccurate data
is still visible in the WHOIS is outdated since last
month ;-)<br>
<br>
Third point: This should be already taken care of by the
compliance follow-up that will follow any unsuspension.<br>
<br>
The recommendation is problematic as this would
effectively result in domain names without any data. I
would prefer the "incorrect data" to remain in place as
we do not know why the domain was suspended. Again,
suspension usually just means someone did not reply in
time. Also, suspensions can occur for a multitude of
other reasons. Forcing a whois verification for a
unsuspension after a bill is paid late for example seems
unreasonable.<br>
<br>
f) Grandfathered domains: Correction: The actual
calendar date is irrelevant to whether a domain is
considered grandfathered or not. Instead, only only
relevant date is the effective date the sponsoring
registrar signed on to the 2013 RAA. So the section
would have to be reworded. <br>
Obviously I also disagree with the conclusions drawn
here, so I provide an alternative for those as well.<br>
<br>
Suggestion:<br>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2">40% of the WHOIS ARS domain names that
are sampled for this program are grandfathered
domain names that have not yet been subjected to
the rigorous verification and validation
requirements of 2013 RAA. The 2009 RAA neither
required the collection and display of
Registrant email address, postal address or
phone number it not the validation or
verification of the data. This applies to domain
names registered prior to the date that the
sponsoring registrar signed on to the 2013 RAA
that have not since been transferred to a
registrar that had at the time of the transfer
signed on to the 2013 RAA and that did not have
a change of RNH occur after such a time. <br>
</font></font></i></p>
<i> </i><i> </i>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2"><b>Analysis:</b></font></font></i><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2"> If we assume the sample of ARS domain
names of 40% grandfathered domain names then we
can extrapolate (based on wrong assumption of
what constutes a legacy domain name).</font></font></i><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2"> </font></font></i> </p>
<i> </i>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2">We have asked the compliance team to
provide data on this statistics but they do not
track this data.</font></font></i></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2">P</font></font></i><i>roblems/Issues:</i></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2">There are domain name registrations
that currently do not comply with the current
WHOIS format requirements and/or policy
requirements as they were registered under
contractual terms different to those required
now and have since then not been updated in a
meaningful way. In fact, the last registrar
under the 2009 RAA is expected to switch from
the 2009 to the 2013 RAA this year. The current
process foresees a smooth and gradual transition
of legacy domain names to the new requirements
upon the occurrence of certain trigger events
and it is expected that the number of such
domain will gradually drop over time as they are
deleted, get transferred between registrars or
the RNH data gets updated. Further, as such
domain names are usually significantly older
domain names, the likelyhood of abusive
registrations amongst them is significantly
lower than for newly registered domain names.
The WG therefore currently sees no need to
suggest modifications to the transition process
foreseen in the 2013 RAA.</font></font></i></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><i><font
face="Arial, serif"><font style="font-size:11pt"
size="2"><br>
</font></font></i></p>
3.2.1.3 For this section, I question the viability of
this tool under GDPR. As bulk whois inquiries are now a
thing of the past, it seems counter-intuitive to
continue to provide a bulk complaint tool as the
complainant has no way of knowing if the data of
multiple domains is identical. We should discuss this
point more.<br>
<br>
3.2.1.4 Strike the last sentence in the first paragraph,
or replace by:<br>
<i>Potential benefits of a more proactive approach to
RDS inaccuracy should be investigate as better data
quality is seen as beneficial to internet users.<br>
<br>
</i>Question: Do we have any indication about the
investigative and financial ressources such a proactive
approach would require? We should not make a
recommendation that would result in an unreasonable
increase in costs of the compliance function. So the
recommendation should at a minimum also require a
cost/benefit study prior to any expansion of the
compliance function into this area. ICANN is strapped
for cash as it is...<br>
<br>
Open Questions:<br>
This actually is not an open question. Work between
ICANN and registrars on identifying a solution that
meets the requirements of the RAA is ongoing. There is
no compliance issue to this until the time that such a
program becomes an actual contractual obligation.<br>
<br>
4 Problem issues: <br>
a) Problem, second paragrph, first sentence, replace by:<br>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"> </p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0cm;border:none;padding:0cm;line-height:100%">
<font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, serif"><font
style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Registrars are
contractually required by the 2013 Registrar
Accreditation Agreement (RAA) to conduct
verification and validation operations regarding
registration data. </font></font></font> </p>
<br>
Recommendation #2:<br>
I would actually support removing this recommendation
entirely, as described above. Maybe we can add something
that ICANN should monitor whether the soft transition
process included in the 2013 RAA actually works as
intended, e.g. the number of such domain names is
gradually decreasing. Anyway, the statement that it has
been a 5 year transition time is blatantly false and
misleading, as detailed above, but I do not blame anyone
for the misconception.<br>
Such an undertaking as proposed would also be highly
unfeasible as especially for these older registrations
as the only contact between registrars and these
customers often is their payment of the invoices. Having
to reach out proactively to these customers without any
indication of an issue will just lead to countless
unjustified and problematic suspensions and angry
customers. <br>
<br>
Recommendation #3 should be changed as described above.
I also do not get why the renewal reference is in there.
Even suspended domains get renewed after all... Also
note that a "suspension for incorrect data" may also
occur under the current RAA requirements regardless of
whether the whois is actually correct or incorrect as
non-response already triggers suspension.<br>
<br>
Recommendation 7: <br>
I move to strike this in its entirety. This is based on
so many errouneous assumptions and will result in so
much additional work for contracted parties, it isn't
even funny. I have argued this in previous mails, so I
will leave it at that. This one has to go...<br>
<br>
Recommendation8 is missing the feasibility section,
which I think is key for this section. In itself it is a
good idea, but the benefits must be weighed against the
costs.<br>
<br>
Apologies that this went longer than I originally
intended, thanks for bearing with me,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<i><br>
</i>
<div class="m_-6609096448993282271moz-cite-prefix">Am
15.06.2018 um 15:18 schrieb Susan Kawaguchi:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have updated the Compliance report for
subgroup 4. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please see attached. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Susan </div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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