[registration-issues-wg] Registrars as Censors

Carlton Samuels carlton.samuels at gmail.com
Mon Nov 6 17:51:42 UTC 2017


See, what we need are sensible responses to telling problems.  And I truly
believe the frameworks existing allows this. Cooperation is key here.

And when that does not happen, throw the book at 'em.

-Carlton


==============================
*Carlton A Samuels*

*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment &
Turnaround*
=============================

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Derek Smythe <derek at aa419.org> wrote:

> I'll swing the conversation to the opposite side to put a reality check
> into this issue. Let's talk fraud. How do these theoretical policies pan
> out in a non-perfect world?
>
> What happens when we come to issues such as registrars demanding a court
> order for issues such as the chemical "SSD Solutions" being sold (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_money_scam ). This chemical does not
> exist.  People using it to defraud have been arrested in just about every
> part of the world. Such attempts are legal nowhere. Clear case history
> exists. Yet the domain name is something akin to "ssdsolution ..." and
> protected by by the registrars associated proxy.
>
> What happens if a brand owner is serially targeted with his website stolen
> again and again,  abused to defraud consumers, the company is small and
> paying @2500 each time for a UDRP is not an option, nor appointing an
> attorney in the USA. Quite frankly such a company could bankrupt itself
> defending itself with "due processes". If they chose not to bankrupt
> themselves,  that does not leave the issue of the victims being targeted. I
> have had conversations with more than one such company.
>
> What happens if we have all the policies in place to ensure valid
> registration details, but not enforced and a party is serially using
> garbage details via a registrar to defraud victims?
>
> These are not free speech issues. This is something else again.
>
> Law enforcement asks for victims, but if victims are not in their
> "connected" jurisdictions, they will not even look at it. In most cases,
> there is no due process for victims since the crime is international and
> losses too small, but devastating and livelihood depriving for the victim.
> In yet other jurisdictions, law enforcement is more concerned about their
> uniforms than cyber fraud, considering it a civil issue. Tell that to
> somebody that has lost their livelihood. But according to the stated logic,
> due process must take place. That means a victim that is virtually bankrupt
> must now hire and international lawyer in the jurisdiction of the registrar
> - for what purpose? The registrar will not recover the losses.
>
> The scenarios above are common and examples only limited by the time
> people like have available. A legitimate party will register one or two
> domains. It's not uncommon to find serial fraudsters registering over 300
> domains.
>
> Here's the irony. Some registers do not tolerate fraud and will take
> action if given conclusive proof. Yet a certain registrar upholding the
> EFF's view has become the go-to registrar with their free proxy services
> where certain bad apples have been booted by other registrars.
>
> We need to think about this carefully. In an ideal world I would agree
> with the EFF, if law enforcement investigates each issue, if legal
> assistance is available to all victims of domain based cyber fraud. But
> then much of the world is not ideal. Not even in the USA, much less in
> other parts of the world.
>
> Derek Smythe
> Artists Against 419http://www.aa419.org
>
> On 2017-11-05 08:43 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
>
> Michele:
> The writing framed the views of two groups of our stakeholders, not at all
> representing my own.
>
> CAS
>
>
> ==============================
> *Carlton A Samuels*
>
> *Mobile: 876-818-1799 <(876)%20818-1799> Strategy, Planning, Governance,
> Assessment & Turnaround*
> =============================
>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
>> Carlton
>>
>>
>>
>> Freedom of speech is **not** “inalienable” and it’s definitely not an
>> absolute right.
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally I think it’s interesting that different groups want to discuss
>> this, but unless they’re going to pay our legal fees I don’t see how any 3
>> rd party can force a registrar (or anyone else) to not take action when
>> they’re being fined or worse.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com
>>
>> https://blacknight.blog /
>>
>> http://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072>
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265
>>
>> ,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>
>> *From: *<registration-issues-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> on
>> behalf of Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday 5 November 2017 at 17:17
>> *To: *"registration-issues-wg at icann.org" <registration-issues-wg at icann.
>> org>, Charla Shambley via CCT-Review <cct-review at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *[registration-issues-wg] Registrars as Censors
>>
>>
>>
>> Um, well, they can summarily act under [a] general provision[s] of the
>> Terms of Service disapproving of things like incitement, antisocial
>> behaviours and such.
>>
>>
>>
>> The NCUC's position tends to a blanket restraint on any action by the
>> registrar; the ToS may not be utilised for such actions, especially if it
>> results - or tends to result - in decisions pertaining [web] content.
>>
>>
>>
>> The EFF's position is a little more nuanced:
>>
>> it is worried about lack of due process and accountability in the first
>> instance and the incursion of certain inalienable rights, like freedom of
>> speech. So they promote a process that they feel would make the action
>> accountable
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registrars-
>> dont-pick-censors-pen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Carlton
>>
>>
>> ==============================
>> *Carlton A Samuels*
>>
>> *Mobile: 876-818-1799 <%28876%29%20818-1799> Strategy, Planning,
>> Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
>> =============================
>>
>
>
>
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