[Rt4-whois] FW: Adobe Connect - Chat Transcript from ICANN Meeting 43 - La Paz A

Tue Mar 13 00:58:05 UTC 2012

Hi Omar,

You are most welcome.
The live scribing will be available on the website shortly.
Rest assured that I will forward it to the Team as soon as it is ready.
Thanks,

Kind regards

Alice
--
Alice Jansen

Assistant, Organizational Reviews
6 Rond Point Schuman, Bt.5
B-1040 Brussels
Belgium
Direct dial: +32 2 234 78 64
Mobile: +32 4 73 31 76 56
Skype: alice_jansen_icann

On 3/12/12 6:55 PM, "Omar Kaminski" <omar at kaminski.adv.br> wrote:

>Dear Alice,
>
>Thanks, you're always helpful. I believe the session transcription
>could also be useful to us. I forgot to save it, but I believe you
>have it with you.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Omar
>
>
>
>2012/3/12 Alice Jansen <alice.jansen at icann.org>:
>> Dear Review Team Members,
>>
>>
>> Please find below content of the Adobe room chat box.
>> Lutz was in the room interacting with remote participants.
>> Lutz has also me asked me to email you a message:
>> JUst an "internal" comment. German LAE asks how "proxy/privacy" can be
>>use
>> to protect identiies in witness protections programms. I urged them to
>> send in a comment ....
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Alice
>>
>>
>> Quote:
>> On 3/12/12 6:04 PM, "Alice Jansen" <alice.jansen at icann.org> wrote:
>>
>>>  Alice Jansen:Welcome to the WHOIS Policy Review Team Session. The
>>>session will begin shortly. Your comments and questions will be read in
>>>the room if asked.
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):? 6. measure reduction in "unreachable domain
>>>names" - why does a *domain* have to reachable - or do you means
>>>something else ?
>>>  Olof Nordling:@Rob - will read out your question in the Q&A, if you so
>>>wish.
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@olof - please - just to clarify the slide - i
>>>*think* she meant where the registrant isnt (obviously) contactable, but
>>>thats not how it was worded
>>>  Olof Nordling:@Rob - I am confident you are correct in that assumption
>>>- rather an edit of the slide to be suggested, thus.
>>>  gpmgroup:Wby doesn't ICANN offer an incentive to have open & accurate
>>>WHOIS data?
>>>  gpmgroup:Why
>>>  Olof Nordling:@gpmgroup - happy to read that one out in the Q&A, OK?
>>>  gpmgroup:thanks perhaps I should word it a little less ambigiously
>>>  Olof Nordling:listening;-)
>>>  Olof Nordling:listening;-)
>>>  Omar Kaminski:Feedback from Twitter: "@miltonmueller: Whois Review
>>>team
>>>concludes that most consumers have never heard of Whois. So much for the
>>>argument that it promotes consumer trust"
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@gpmgroup there are lots of reasons for
>>>why people don't want all there date public
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:data
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:Still the whois service for .com and .net
>>>and others like them are a shame and not trustworthy
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):? are there recommendations on Criminalising
>>>misuses of WHOIS data - it took less than 3 days from a new registration
>>>before spam started arriving at the unique email address I used on the
>>>domain registration - having such information freely available and
>>>public
>>>is not just a privacy concern but a real issue to normal users who dont
>>>need a supplier of dodgy pharmaceuticals
>>>  gpmgroup:I agree Benny but if there was more incentives then it would
>>>be an easy (dristibuted) way of cleaning up a large data set
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Benny - each registrar implenets their own
>>>whois
>>>system for com/net as it's thin whois - there are many pros and cons to
>>>that - pros being keepingyoru client data away from versign, cons being
>>>no single layout/implementation  of the data
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@rob one of may reasons
>>>  gpmgroup:@ Olof  Why doesn¹t ICANN offer incentives to have open &
>>>accurate WHOIS?
>>>  gpmgroup:lost sound
>>>  Amy Mushahwar:Yes, I've lost audio, too.
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):its gone silent :(
>>>  Olof Nordling:we have notified the tech services
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@Rob, clearly god reasons you state but
>>>whats the alternative ?
>>>  Alice Jansen:Apologies - our Staff is looking into the issue. Please
>>>refer to the live scribing in the meantime. Thanks for your patience.
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:I mean for a lot of CC tlds its working
>>>fine
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:@Benny: No Whois at all?
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:anyway there are a lot of them not
>>>working
>>>too
>>>  gpmgroup:http://stream.icann.org/sjo43-lapaza-64-en.m3u
>>>  gpmgroup:external sound
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Benny - personally I think WHOIS is largely
>>>pointless and has been for 10 years - in t'old days, when t'interweb was
>>>run by people who met down the pub on a friday, it was suseful to knwo
>>>who should be contacted about nameserver changes (the tech contact) -
>>>now
>>>the only person any 3rd party needs realy to contact is the registrar
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):is Law-Enforcement have a valid reason to
>>>request
>>>the "real" data behind a registration, subject to approraite paperwork
>>>they can ask
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Rob: You are seeking for contractual realtionships in
>>>Whois? Like a thin whois delegation structure?
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:So if for any reason as a hosting company
>>>wants to check an owner for a competing domain or infrigements on
>>>trademark it shall be hidden ?
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Please send in your questions to the public comment
>>>list. Otherwise the comments will likly be overseen.
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Lutz - whois as a way of determining
>>>availbility
>>>of a domain is flawed - it's not the right method, and as a way for
>>>anyone-and-evreyone to ocntact the domain owner - the question really is
>>>why shoudl a 3rd party have any "right" to contact anyone - i *choose*
>>>if
>>>my phone number is published in a directory, and commercial calls (as
>>>it's not public) to the number are an *offence* in uk law- why shouldnt
>>>whois data be the same - fines for people using it incorrectly - if that
>>>was possible people might bemore inclined to give accurate details
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Please add thsi valueable comment to the list. Let it
>>>point to proxyy an privacy services
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Lutz - my *personal* opinion is that it's long
>>>past its "sell by date" and needs to be taken off the protocol list
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@Rob there is a huge difference in
>>>someone
>>>registering microosoft.com and and someone who is given a phonenumber...
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:the one registrering a domain is doing
>>>somethin active for abuse someone elses rights
>>>  Alice Jansen:Participants, please let us know whether you would like
>>>us
>>>to read your comments in the room. Thanks
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Benny - and there should be methods to
>>>determine
>>>who that person is - and the _ONLY_ people who would know are teh
>>>registrar, as it'll be their client
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Benny - but the number od *domain* infringments
>>>is tiny - much more goes on at the _hosting_ level, which whois doesnt
>>>help with
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Hosting is easily determined: By looking up the AS
>>>Number from the BGP Routing entry
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:So you would like to hand out data for
>>>every registrar requesting data?
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Lutz Host != Network :)
>>>  gpmgroup:anyone offering commercial services should have to use open
>>>and accurate WHOIS
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Benny: The AoC is clear: "easy, accurate and complete
>>>access ..."
>>>  gpmgroup:Product launcehs and mergers is a poor excuse
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:gpmgroup:  Law Enforcement itself need "privacy" for
>>>protecting their people in the witness protection programms
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@gpmgroup spammers harvesting is a very
>>>good reason for not giving good data to whois
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:But again: Bring it to the public omment forum.
>>>Otherwise the discussion is lost.
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@gpmgroup - and across the EU (and other
>>>regions)
>>>thats the requirement for valid details on the _website_ - but the
>>>_domain_ doenst need to be owned by the organisation using it, and
>>>in-and-of-itself doesnt need *public* contact information
>>>  gpmgroup:@Benny I know and some companies in the domain industry who
>>>should know better are scraping the whois
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@gpmgroup - you have to "scrape" the whois to
>>>get
>>>the contacts on a transfer !
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):olof - my question ... ? are there
>>>recommendations on Criminalising misuses of WHOIS data - it took less
>>>than 3 days from a new registration before spam started arriving at the
>>>unique email address I used on the domain registration - having such
>>>information freely available and public is not just a privacy concern
>>>but
>>>a real issue to normal users who dont need a supplier of dodgy
>>>pharmaceuticals
>>>  Olof Nordling:@Rob - I'll get to the end of the queue here and deliver
>>>that one
>>>  JorgeAmodio:good one Milton
>>>  gpmgroup:@Rob there's a whole difference between using the WHOIS to
>>>facilitate a domain transfer and scraping the WHOIS to send out spam
>>>emails to thousands of third party registrants
>>>  JorgeAmodio:sure the users will do a Whois before clicking
>>>  JorgeAmodio:consumer DONT KNOW what Whois is
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@pmgroup - i know, but you have to get these
>>>things in th opene before some fool creates a policy to "ban" scraping
>>>of
>>>whois data ;)
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Jorge: MOde users does not know how to even ask a
>>>whois question (hint: that's the protocol using TCP/43) ... But most
>>>does
>>>not even know about whois at all
>>>  JorgeAmodio:0%
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Jorge - users donteve understand what ssl is -
>>>thats why phishing scams are so effectn hen they just have a padock on
>>>teh page noin the browser bar !
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:That's why the recommendation to provide an "all
>>>whois
>>>web interface" by ICANN exists
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:JUst listen to bill
>>>  JorgeAmodio:ha wait need to LOL about that
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Jorge: WHy?
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:So why is it so difficult to create a
>>>standard on this, with RFCs for anything else and standards for a lot of
>>>other things, wy is this so difficult for whois ?
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Benny: Because almost all service uses a different
>>>set
>>>of options, results and languages
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:I should be rather simple imo
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Most ccTLDs ar enot allowed to provide the data by
>>>local law.
>>>  Alice Jansen:Kind reminder: Participants, please let us know if you
>>>would like your comments to be read in the room. Thanks.
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Then the ODN problem. Can you parse an japanese
>>>response?
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Sorry, ALice
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:well its just data... so if you have a
>>>standard it shouldnt be a problem
>>>  JorgeAmodio:mike please
>>>  Alice Jansen:No need to be sorry, Lutz. You are perfectly free to chat
>>>with other participants :-). Just wanted to let you know that Olof and I
>>>are ready to voice your comments/questions if you wish
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:the problem is the standard which are non
>>>existing
>>>  JorgeAmodio:nope it is not
>>>  JorgeAmodio:no it is not even an imperfect solution
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:let me refrase that.. the problem is the
>>>standard which are implemented in so many different ways and shall cover
>>>so many different demands from different lawmakers and registries
>>>  JorgeAmodio:its conception had nothing to do for what you are trying
>>>to
>>>use it
>>>  JorgeAmodio:useless
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:looking at the statistics for wdrp
>>>responses and updates it's less than 2 % who cares to look at the whois
>>>data
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:most registrants don't care.. thats the
>>>reality here
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:And I am quite sure that most registrars
>>>are happy as long as the got paid
>>>  JorgeAmodio:the ones who care are law enforcement entities
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:from the registrants
>>>  gpmgroup:@ Beeny its easy givem a refund so they do care
>>>  JorgeAmodio:and IP attorneys trying to find contact info about who to
>>>sue
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:@gpmgroup what kind of refund have you in
>>>mind?
>>>  gpmgroup:Make it more expensive to use privacy if you don't want
>>>privacy to be widely used , give money back to registrants who verify
>>>their data
>>>  JorgeAmodio:they will pay for privacy that's a fact
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:so lets see selling domains for 9 usd
>>>paying 8 usd what to give back ?
>>>  JorgeAmodio:centralized ? great concept for a distributed and open
>>>Internet
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:centralized "Interface" to access decentalised data
>>>  JorgeAmodio:nopet
>>>  gpmgroup:I doubt most new gTLDs will retail for $8 or $9  but to
>>>answer
>>>the question an amount significant enough to encourage the change people
>>>want
>>>  JorgeAmodio:they want to AGREGATE the data and control access to it
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:the new tld is the least problem... the
>>>existing data is the big problem to be solved
>>>  gpmgroup:@Jorge .info has a centralized whois and that is much easier
>>>to use than the distributed .com model
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:as .xxx explained its costly but they do
>>>it
>>>  JorgeAmodio:that is part of the distributed nature of the Whois
>>>protocol
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:centralized "databases" fail to comply with varying
>>>local laws
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Please distinguish between "centralized access" and
>>>"storage"
>>>  JorgeAmodio:sure, forget who is funding ICANN?
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:Jorge: Everbody ;-)
>>>  JorgeAmodio:follow the money
>>>  Rob Golding (othello):@Jorge - registrars fund it (over 95%) just for
>>>the ability to let anyone-at-all to have a say in how we run our
>>>business
>>>:p
>>>  Alice Jansen:The Review Team is about to wrap up. Please submit your
>>>comments/questions to be read now.
>>>  Rudi Vansnick:Lutz : not really everybody ... some ccTLDs are just
>>>paying a very small amount to ICANN compared to the GTLDs
>>>  Benny Samuelsen - Nordreg AB:Taking the night here... have a nice day
>>>evening night where ever you are located
>>>  Lutz Donnerhacke:/me smiles.
>>>  JorgeAmodio:problem is that the weeds keep growing
>>>  gpmgroup:Thnak you for asking my question and thanks for a very smooth
>>>remote session
>>>  Alice Jansen:This session is now closed. Thank you for your
>>>participation. Rest assured that the content of this chat box will be
>>>emailed to the Review Team Members.
>>>  Amy Mushahwar:thank you
>>
>>
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