[tz] Wrong spelling of a city in a timezone name

Michael Douglass mikeadouglass at gmail.com
Tue Oct 9 19:15:39 UTC 2018

So soon after the last one.

Is it still too soon to suggest opaque ids again?

On 10/9/18 14:52, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
> Hello,
> • Note that CLDR is already tracking this issue at
> https://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10185#comment:7 — the English
> usage was not (at present) compelling enough to make a change to the
> English side.
> • Per the CLDR comparison charts,
> https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/by_type/timezones.europe.html#6dd1046c581ae238
> you can note the spellings:
>> "Київ" for Ukranian, "Киев" for Russian.
> • As noted above, "Europe/Kiev" is just an identifier and not the
> correct thing to put in front of users.
> • If you would like to explore CLDR translations for time zones, visit
> https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/by_type/ and click on the
> various time zone links in the following line:
> Timezones: Timezone Display Patterns | North America | South America |
> Africa | Europe | Russia | Western Asia | Central Asia | Eastern Asia
> | Southern Asia | Southeast Asia | Australasia | Antarctica | Oceania
> | Unknown Region | Overrides
> Regards,
> Steven
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:38 AM Paul Eggert <eggert at cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
>> Igor via tz wrote:
>>> Ukrainian government is currently running a campaign called Kyiv Not Kiev
>> If common English-language usage changes so that "Kyiv" is way more popular than
>> "Kiev", we plan to change too. That hasn't happened yet.
>>> I saw in your files that you understand that Kyiv is correct spelling and you
>>> reason that Kiev is more common, alas that argument is wrong. It's only more
>>> common because it's been mistakingly used for a long period of time.
>> As a rule we don't judge who's right or who's wrong about spelling; we just take
>> the most common English spelling. Anyway, the name "Europe/Kiev" is intended to
>> be an internal identifier, not something visible to end users.
>> We've recently added text to try to explain this better, as follows:
>> Each timezone has a unique name. Inexperienced users are not expected to select
>> these names unaided. Distributors should provide documentation and/or a simple
>> selection interface that explains each name via a map or via descriptive text
>> like "Ruthenia" instead of the timezone name "<code>Europe/Uzhgorod</code>". If
>> geolocation information is available, a selection interface can locate the user
>> on a timezone map or prioritize names that are geographically close. For an
>> example selection interface, see the <code>tzselect</code> program in the
>> <code><abbr>tz</abbr></code> code. The <a
>> href="http://cldr.unicode.org/">Unicode Common Locale Data Repository</a>
>> contains data that may be useful for other selection interfaces; it maps
>> timezone names like <code>Europe/Uzhgorod</code> to CLDR names like
>> <code>uauzh</code> which are in turn mapped to locale-dependent strings like
>> "Uzhhorod", "Ungvár", "Ужгород", and "乌日哥罗德".
>> ...
>> # From Paul Eggert (2018-10-03):
>> # As is usual in tzdb, Ukrainian zones use the most common English spellings.
>> # For example, tzdb uses Europe/Kiev, as "Kiev" is the most common spelling in
>> # English for Ukraine's capital, even though it is certainly wrong as a
>> # transliteration of the Ukrainian "Київ".  This is similar to tzdb's use of
>> # Europe/Prague, which is certainly wrong as a transliteration of the Czech
>> # "Praha".  ("Kiev" came from old Slavic via Russian to English, and "Prague"
>> # came from old Slavic via French to English, so the two cases have something
>> # in common.)  Admittedly English-language spelling of Ukrainian names is
>> # controversial, and some day "Kyiv" may become substantially more popular in
>> # English; in the meantime, stick with the traditional English "Kiev" as that
>> # means less disruption for our users.
>> #
>> # Anyway, none of the common English-language spellings (Kiev, Kyiv, Kieff,
>> # Kijeff, Kijev, Kiyef, Kiyeff) do justice to the common pronunciation in
>> # Ukrainian, namely [ˈkɪjiu̯] (IPA).  This pronunciation has nothing like an
>> # English "v" or "f", and instead trails off with what an English-speaker
>> # would call a demure "oo" sound, and it would would be better anglicized as
>> # "Kuiyu".  Here's a sound file, if you would like to do as the Kuiyuvians do:
>> # https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uk-Київ.ogg

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