[tz] KyivNotKiev

Andriy Ivanchenko ivanchenko.andriy at gmail.com
Fri Nov 27 11:39:51 UTC 2020

I understand correctly that you do not plan to change Kiev to Kyiv?
Do I still have to wait a while for the final decision?
I don't understand how your system works.
Can you write about it in more detail?

пт, 27 лист. 2020 о 10:58 Andriy Ivanchenko <ivanchenko.andriy at gmail.com>

> Thank you for considering my question.
> I think in English the name of the city came from the Russian language due
> to historical features.
> Kiev - from Russian pronunciation.
> Kyiv - from Ukrainian pronunciation.
> The state language of Ukraine is the Ukrainian language.
> Most programmers show the original record from the database as Kiev when
> providing the time zone selection. And this leads to discussions.
> https://ua.usembassy.gov
> You can also find the correct inscription on the website of the US Embassy
> in Ukraine. In the contacts below.
> U.S. Embassy
> U.S. Embassy Kyiv <https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/>
> 4 A.I. Sikorsky St.
> 04112 Kyiv, Ukraine
> Here https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-п#Text you can see
> transliteration at the state level, if that helps.
> Maybe it's time to introduce multilingual support in your database?
> чт, 26 лист. 2020 о 18:44 Alan Perry <alanp at snowmoose.com> пише:
>> As a Wikipedia editor, I think Mr. Hawkinson should spend some time
>> participating in the Wikipedia decision making process before trying to
>> take in characterizing its inertia against change to others.
>> I also question his claim that “major English-language authorities have
>> all switched to Kyiv” without listing them. The English language doesn’t
>> have official authorities, what constitutes a major English-language
>> authority is subjective.
>> As far as this group, I am not sure what the WSJ or AP does is
>> particularly relevant. However, I think the decisions of English-language
>> naming authorities, like the USGS Board on Geographical Names, and
>> international authorities that designate things in English, like IATA and
>> ICAO, are more relevant and they have gone to using Kyiv as the primary
>> name. What are similar governmental and international authorities doing on
>> this?
>> alan
>> > On Nov 26, 2020, at 06:07, John Hawkinson <jhawk at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > MAJOR CHANGE: It's interesting to me how badly we are, as a group, at
>> having these discussions. We do not do a good job of introducing new people
>> to the way we think about these issues, and we do not do a good job of
>> assessing whether the ground under our feet has changed (it has!)
>> >
>> > What Andriy's email did not explain is the rather significant change:
>> >
>> > On Sept. 16, 2020, Wikipedia finally decided that the time had come and
>> moved its page from Kiev to Kyiv.
>> > See
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kyiv/Archive_7#Requested_move_28_August_2020
>> > It was summarized with:
>> >
>> > | Rough consensus that "Kyiv" is the better title given usage in
>> > | reliable, English-language sources. An extended summary/rationale
>> > | prefaces the discussion. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:58, 16 September 2020
>> > | (UTC)
>> >
>> > That decision was positively reviewed week later at
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2020_September
>> (you have to click the "show" button).
>> >
>> > I'm not an expert in Wikipedia's decision-making processes, but I will
>> say that about a year ago (Oct. 3, 2019), I made this prediction: "Because
>> of its...unique project management challenges, I expect Wikipedia will
>> probably be the last thing to switch. (cf.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming/Archive_14#The_time_has_come:_Welcome_to_Kyiv_on_English_Wikipedia!_#KyivNotKiev).
>> I don't think we should wait that long."
>> >
>> > Turns out I was wrong, Wikipedia switched before tz. Wikipedia, also,
>> instituted a moratorium on these discussions; the last one was a year long,
>> and so that's why this one come a year following our previous substantive
>> discussion, after the Associated Press and the Wall Street Journal made
>> changes.
>> >
>> >
>> > So, it is probably time for us to take another look.
>> > I continue to support the change, and I think the objections offered
>> are really just excuses.
>> > We wouldn't excuse an American racist anachronism in our database in
>> the same way; perhaps this is not appropriately comparable, but I think it
>> is not wrong to ask the question as to whether it is.
>> >
>> > Specific comments:
>> >
>> > Andriy: The tz project has long been aware of this issue, and the
>> project leaders have felt that the English-language concensus remained
>> Kiev, although they were aware of the clear preference of the Ukranian
>> government and citizenry. So the question now is whether the
>> English-language concensus has changed. It's clear that we should be
>> looking at that once again.
>> >
>> > Lester Caine: No one with a straight face can pretend that timezone
>> identifiers are opauqe tags right now. And I think very few people could
>> see a way to a transition where they are. In part because
>> US-English-centered developers like working with the names as they are, and
>> change is hard and frustrating and often counterproductive.
>> >
>> > David Patte: Enshrining offensive anachronisms by changing our standard
>> to be "if we made a mistake, we will never fix it" is politically
>> unpalatable in almost every part of the world. I would find it politically
>> unpalatable here. We are concerned about churn and "opening the floodgates"
>> so we have made it hard to make changes, for good reason, but a system that
>> is impossible to change is no good either.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I do think it's clear that the major English-language authorities have
>> all switched to Kyiv.
>> > If our process is going to be to claim that we need to wait for the
>> majority of written words to change over (e.g. based on Google search
>> results, N-grams, etc.), I think we are setting an unreasonably high and
>> unattainable target.
>> >
>> > Kyiv has marshalled a political campaign to make this happen throughout
>> the world in a way that it's difficult to imagine any other city doing, and
>> it's very hard for me to see why we should substitute our judgement for
>> that of all the authorities, be they formal political ones or simply major
>> news sources and style guides. If this is not enough, what would ever be?
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > jhawk at alum.mit.edu
>> > John Hawkinson
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