[tz] Please Don't Feed the Trolls (was Kyiv not Kiev)

Petro Ord petro.ordyn at gmail.com
Thu Jun 30 21:11:44 UTC 2022

If no new timezone was created, then the region was *changed* for some reason.
Therefore we go back again to the fact that change was made upon the
news from russia.

If you really cared about how people feel or were affected by such
news from russia, you would have some comments like “yes we find it
useful, because previous time was inconvenient, or we live using other
time, or else…”.

How can you state that most users of Crimea are keeping Moscow time?
Did you have any surveys? Did you have any complaints about the
incorrect imezone for Simferopol?

You may say that Crimea had referendum, but the referendum results
appeared to be different
Human Rights Council report stated that only 30% of Crimea citizens
voted, therefore 70% were nor keeping or living by Moscow time.

And there is again a question about whom to believe: Human Rights
Council report or russia report.
Considering the expedited update and the fact that no real
confirmation was provided to support real timezone preferences of
Crimea citizens, the decision was done in favor of russia for some
reason other than correct time.

> about reclaim
In order to reclaim, one needs to agree that territory was claimed (in
other words has a right to have something), but Ukraine do not
recognize Crimea's claim for sovereignty and Crimea referendum, as
well it is not recognized by the mentioned resolution.
There is even the Ministry of Temporarily Occupied Territories and
Internally displaced persons, organized to manage Donetsk, Luhansk and
Crimea regions.
These territories are only occupied with rusian military forces. If by
Crimea users you mean military forces, then yes, they might use and
live by the timezone they have come from, but these are not the people
who live in the Crimea.

> If so, which lines are incorrect?
There is the difference between the incorrect line and not having the line.
It is the same as if I asked you to show me #3 among these numbers: 1, 2, 4, 5.
You don’t have hard evidence to prove that values, you have shown,
correctly describe the time in Kyiv region unless you have Kyiv region
values to evaluate the presupposition.
It is the same problem as with numbers:
Number 3 is a unit that forms part of the system of counting and calculating
Numbers 1, 2, 4, 5 are also units that form part of the system of
counting and calculating.
The only difference is the name of that unit. Unless you have such row
as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, it is impossible to show #3.
Therefore you might have the correct values for the region; the issue
is that you don’t have such a region.

чт, 30 июн. 2022 г. в 14:43, Guy Harris <gharris at sonic.net>:
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 3:11 AM, Petro Ord <petro.ordyn at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It seems that "If boundaries between regions are fluid, such as during
> > a war or insurrection, do not bother to create a new timezone merely
> > because of yet another boundary change." does not apply to russia.
> Please indicate what new time zone was created as a result of either the 2014 Russian occupation of Crimea, the breakaway movement in the Donetsk and Luhansk areas, or the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
> Crimea was represented by the Europe/Simferopol region; that region was *changed*, but no new timezone (time zone database region) was created.  No new region was created for Donetsk and Luhansk.
> >> What affect has the resolution had on the time to which Crimean residents set
> >> their watches and that Crimean residents expect their mobile phones/computing devices to display?
> > This is the response to "When Ukraine successfully reclaims the
> > occupied territory", not only Ukraine reclaimed the occupied territory
> > but also the rest of the world did.
> If "claim" here means "claim that the occupied territory belongs to Ukraine", nothing has been "reclaimed" by Ukraine - before the Russian occupation, Ukraine claimed Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk, and they still claim it.
> However, "reclaim" here means to reestablish control over the occupied territory; Ukraine has not, as far as I know, pushed the Russian occupiers out of those regions and established effective control over those regions, so I suspect that most residents of Crimea keep clocks that don't use the time zone database set to Moscow time, and would thus find it inconvenient if the time kept by devices that use the time zone database (most smartphones and some personal computers) match that setting.
> If that's not the case, please let us know.
> If that *is* the case, then that means that the reality in Crimea is that most users are keeping Moscow time, the fact that this time zone setting was imposed by the Russian government rather than by the government recognized by Ukraine and the UN as the legitimate government of Crimea notwithstanding.
> Note that there are a number of other cases in the time zone database where time changes imposed by occupying powers are reflected in the time zone database (World War II occupations by the Axis powers and occupation of the West Bank by Israel, for example).
> >> Because that's not a change that affects time conversion.
> >> It's like the change from Asia/Calcutta to Asia/Kolkata;
> > Kyiv is not the name change. You don't have time for Kyiv in the tz databse.
> So are you saying that a Zone entry with the following values for STDOFF, RULES, FORMAT and, except for the last line, UNTIL (the last line doesn't have an UNTIL value, as there is no known upcoming change to the rules):
>                         2:02:04 -       LMT     1880
>                         2:02:04 -       KMT     1924 May  2
>                         2:00    -       EET     1930 Jun 21
>                         3:00    -       MSK     1941 Sep 20
>                         1:00    C-Eur   CE%sT   1943 Nov  6
>                         3:00    Russia  MSK/MSD 1990 Jul  1  2:00
>                         2:00    1:00    EEST    1991 Sep 29  3:00
>                         2:00    C-Eur   EE%sT   1996 May 13
>                         2:00    EU      EE%sT
> does not correctly describe the time in Kyiv and the tzdb region in which Kyiv is the largest city (at least for 1930-06-21 and later)?
> If so, which lines are incorrect?
> Those values appear in the Zone entry for that tzdb in both the current tzdata2022a version of the database and in the current Git repository version.
> The one difference between the Zone entry containing those lines in the current tzdata2022a version of the database and the current Git repository version of the database is the name given to the region.  The version in tzdata2022a uses, in the name for that region, the name primarily used in English for its largest city in the region at one time; the version in the Git repository uses, in the name for that region, the name now primarily used in English for the largest city in the region.
> So if the values shown above correctly describe the time in that region, there is an entry in the current version of the tz database for that region, and thus we *do* have time for Kyiv in the tz database, it just happens to use, as the name for that region, an out-of-date English name for its largest city.
> That's the same as was the case for the time zone database entry for the region in which Kolkata is the largest city - before the 2008 change, the name for that region used an old English-language name for the city that didn't reflect the city's name changing in 2000/2001, and, after that change, the name for that region used an English-language name that reflected the new name.

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