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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Mark,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I do understand the there are a number of descriptive (vs
prescriptive) standardization efforts, however very few of them are intended to
maintain a constantly changing reality. This is the destinction I was trying to
draw. The conventional standardization process either creates a model of a
reality, and then enforces that model (with occasional refinements or
modifications), or creates a new prescriptive model that is likewise updated on
a relatively infrequent basis.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In both cases, the intent is for the operational reality to
follow the standard (even if the standard is originally derived from that
operational reality).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>The TZ database is a somewhat different kettle of fish, in
that it is more a process of documenting a constantly changing reality. This
process is orthoginal to the conventional standardization process - be it
descriptive (Unicode Locales) or prescriptive (802.11i) in origin.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In the case of live documentation, you are constantly
attempting to keep up with a changing reality - this requires a greater agility
and responsiveness than your typical formal standard. Conversely, and to use
your example of the Unicode Locales project, once the standard is documented, it
is unlikely that the (for example) date format custom for a particular region
will change in the space of a few days. This is the sort of rapid change
that is commonplace for the TZ database project.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Based on this, I feel that placing the TZ database project
under the control of a traditional standards body with not be appropriate, due
to the very different style of maintenance and thinking required.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313083401-31082009><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns
= "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rob Masters</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Unix Systems
Administrator</SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bunnings Group
Limited<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:address
w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">126 </SPAN><SPAN lang=AR-SA
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: AR-SA; mso-no-proof: yes">Pilbara</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Street</SPAN></st1:Street><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, <st1:City
w:st="on">Welshpool</st1:City> <st1:State
w:st="on">WA</st1:State></SPAN></st1:address><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> 6106<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Locked Bag 20, Welshpool WA
6986<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Phone: (08) 9365-1507</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=DE
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: DE">E-mail :
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
title=mailto:person@bunnings.com.au href="mailto:rmasters@bunnings.com.au"><SPAN
lang=DE
style="mso-ansi-language: DE">rmasters@bunnings.com.au</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
lang=DE
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: DE"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Website: <A
title=http://www.bunnings.com.au
href="http://www.bunnings.com.au">www.bunnings.com.au</A></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
[mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>mark@macchiato.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 29 August 2009 7:38
AM<BR><B>To:</B> tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov<BR><B>Cc:</B>
tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: New home for time zone stuff by
2012?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>There may be some misunderstanding here. While there are some
standardization efforts that are perscriptive, many standardization efforts are
targeted at "reflecting reality as closely as possible". The Unicode Locales
project, for example, aims at getting translations, date formats, time formats,
etc. on the basis of customary usage.<BR><BR clear=all>Mark<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 16:48, Robert Masters <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:RMasters@bunnings.com.au">RMasters@bunnings.com.au</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>Thank-you
Russ!<BR><BR>That is exactly the sort of response I was hoping for - why NOT
to use<BR>my suggestion.<BR><BR>Further, your suggestion has a number of very
good points to support it.<BR><BR>Eyrie.org has been around for a long time by
net standards (over 10<BR>years now), and has always been well maintained and
resourced. They<BR>provide the same benefits that Sourceforge offer, with none
of the<BR>problems that the site currently suffers from. It is independent of
a<BR>formal body, providing a separation from bureaucratic controls, and
is<BR>likewise separated from an individual's place of employment.<BR><BR>I do
not think that moving the project under the umbrella of a standards<BR>or
similar organistation will be of particular benefit, as the point of<BR>the
project is to reflect reality as closely as possible, not to try to<BR>enforce
a standard on reality. In many ways it requires the exact<BR>opposite of a
standards body.<BR>
<DIV class=im><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Rob Masters<BR>Unix Systems
Administrator<BR><BR>Bunnings Group Limited<BR>126 Pilbara Street, Welshpool
WA 6106<BR>Locked Bag 20, Welshpool WA 6986<BR>Phone: (08) 9365-1507<BR>E-mail
: <A
href="mailto:rmasters@bunnings.com.au">rmasters@bunnings.com.au</A><BR>Website:
<A href="http://www.bunnings.com.au"
target=_blank>www.bunnings.com.au</A><BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=im>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Russ Allbery [mailto:<A
href="mailto:rra@stanford.edu">rra@stanford.edu</A>]<BR>Sent: Friday, 28
August 2009 2:55 AM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov">tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>Subject: Re: New home for time zone stuff by
2012?<BR><BR>"Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E]" <<A
href="mailto:olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov">olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov</A>>
writes:<BR><BR>> I'll be eligible to start drawing a pension in mid-2012.
Since I'm<BR>> accustomed to slow-moving Quaker process, that makes it time
to get<BR>> serious about finding a new home for time zone
stuff.<BR><BR>> There are several pieces of the puzzle (some of which
haven't seen<BR>> much work of late):<BR><BR>> Data
maintenance<BR>> Data distribution<BR>>
Code maintenance<BR>> Code
distribution<BR>> Mailing list maintenance<BR>>
Mailing list hosting<BR>>
Standards work (for example, tweaking POSIX TZ environment<BR>variables so
Godthab can be represented)<BR>> Code enhancement (for
example, year zero work and Julian<BR>calendar<BR>> work)<BR><BR>Since it's
been explicitly mentioned as a suggestion, I guess I'll be<BR>one to stand up
and say that I'd really hate to see this work move to<BR>Sourceforge.
The Sourceforge site is riddled with advertising in ways<BR>that have
gotten increasingly obnoxious over the years, it's slow, it's<BR>often buggy,
and the mailing lists that it hosts have historically also<BR>mangled outgoing
messages with even more advertising.<BR><BR>In the name of not complaining
about something without offering an<BR>alternative:<BR><BR>Moving from hosting
based on the current maintainer to hosting based on<BR>another individual may
not be the best approach, and I certainly<BR>understand if people would prefer
something more distributed that makes<BR>it easier to have continuity of
access. However, I'm willing to host<BR>the infrastructure for
continuing to distribute and discuss the timezone<BR>database personally,
particularly as an alternative to seeing it move to<BR>Sourceforge.<BR><BR><A
href="http://eyrie.org" target=_blank>eyrie.org</A> is my personal domain,
independent of any employment of mine,<BR>and can offer:<BR><BR>* Mailing list
hosting (via Mailman)<BR>* Mailing list maintenance (I'm willing to review the
moderation queue)<BR>* Data distribution via <A
href="http://archives.eyrie.org" target=_blank>archives.eyrie.org</A> / <A
href="http://ftp.eyrie.org" target=_blank>ftp.eyrie.org</A><BR>* Code
distribution via <A href="http://archives.eyrie.org"
target=_blank>archives.eyrie.org</A> / <A href="http://ftp.eyrie.org"
target=_blank>ftp.eyrie.org</A><BR><BR>If the number of downloads of the
source and data is in excess of a few<BR>GiB a day of network traffic averaged
over a month, hosting the<BR>distribution is a bit trickier, but I think it's
unlikely that would be<BR>the case. That's over 10,000 downloads of the
tarball a day, and I<BR>suspect nearly all users get it via distributions or
other sources.<BR><BR>If whoever is doing the maintenance would like to use a
revision control<BR>system, I'm happy to host the repository with the caveat
that I would<BR>like to keep the number of people with access small and
restricted to<BR>people whose identities I can be reasonably assured about,
since I don't<BR>have the distributed hosting facilities of a Sourceforge or
the like.<BR>If the intention is to move to a more open commit model, it
would<BR>probably be better to explore an option like GitHub, Savannah, or
a<BR>similar project hosting provider. If the project would stay with
a<BR>single committer who just needs a place to upload things, I
can<BR>certainly provide that.<BR><BR>--<BR>Russ Allbery (<A
href="mailto:rra@stanford.edu">rra@stanford.edu</A>)<BR><<A
href="http://www.eyrie.org/%7Eeagle/"
target=_blank>http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/</A>><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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