<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 12 April 2013 07:16, Ian Abbott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:abbotti@mev.co.uk" target="_blank">abbotti@mev.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
That's all the more reason to add the 'A' prefix to the new abbreviations, I think, just so it's easier to tell if an old date string is using the old abbreviation or the new one.</blockquote></div><br>On 12 April 2013 08:17, David Patte ₯ <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dpatte@relativedata.com" target="_blank">dpatte@relativedata.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">I believe both Timothy and I prefer prefer AEST over EST, but it is a different issue than the Daylight saving time ambiguity issue</blockquote>
</div><br>A different issue, certainly. But I think the argument here is that, although it can be discussed separately, adding the A should probably be implemented simultaneously with the broader xST/xDT change. If we don't, we could potentially have legacy timestamps out there stamped by versions of tz that use (1) xST/xST, (2) xST/xDT, and (3) AxST/AxDT. In the third case, nothing is ambiguous; but between the first two, the question of whether it's ambiguous is itself ambiguous!</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">On 12 April 2013 08:17, David Patte ₯ <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dpatte@relativedata.com" target="_blank">dpatte@relativedata.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">We changed only the daylight time abbreviations to end the ambiguity.</blockquote>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Unfortunately, as shown above, this could actually make it worse. Since a goal of this broad proposal is indeed to reduce ambiguity, we should be extremely cautious against introducing ambiguity within ambiguity. Obviously, we can't change the past (and we shouldn't attempt to), so it is better to make a clean break and add a clear distinction between the two different notations so it is clear which is being used (and in the case of the older one, so users can decide whether further investigation is required to disambiguate).</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 12 April 2013 09:34, Stuart Bishop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stuart@stuartbishop.net" target="_blank">stuart@stuartbishop.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div id=":307">I believe nearly all Australians either don't care or prefer AEST over<br>
EST</div></blockquote></div><br>In many ways, this helps, too. We have, at hand, a natural way of adding this distinction without resorting to inventing abbreviations (which we should not do).<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">On 12 April 2013 08:17, David Patte ₯ <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dpatte@relativedata.com" target="_blank">dpatte@relativedata.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
But if the tz maintainers believe that using AEST instead of EST would at the same time help resolve historical ambiguities caused by older versions of the tz database, I am sure we could re-roll the proposal to better suite the preferences of the maintainers.</blockquote>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">In short, I support both the xST/xDT and the A changes, and I feel that the adoption of either without the other would subvert the very goals that each tries to accomplish on its own.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div>--<br>Tim Parenti<br></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 12 April 2013 09:34, Stuart Bishop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stuart@stuartbishop.net" target="_blank">stuart@stuartbishop.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:17 PM, David Patte ₯ <<a href="mailto:dpatte@relativedata.com">dpatte@relativedata.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I believe both Timothy and I prefer prefer AEST over EST, but it is a<br>
> different issue than the Daylight saving time ambiguity issue, so we agreed<br>
> that we we should probably make only the minimal changes that resolved the<br>
> Daylight ambiguity issue with the least changes, since it was more likely to<br>
> be a proposal that would be accepted into tz. We changed only the daylight<br>
> time abbreviations to end the ambiguity.<br>
<br>
</div>I believe nearly all Australians either don't care or prefer AEST over<br>
EST, but understand your rationale. It solves the problems with<br>
systems entirely inside Australian borders. Cross border stuff will<br>
still need workarounds, such as international business or buggy<br>
software written overseas, but at least it is progress.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> But if the tz maintainers believe that using AEST instead of EST would at<br>
> the same time help resolve historical ambiguities caused by older versions<br>
> of the tz database, I am sure we could re-roll the proposal to better suite<br>
> the preferences of the maintainers.<br>
<br>
</div>I think a proposal for AEST would be preferable, with a fallback to<br>
EST, rather than attempting to divine the desires of the maintainers<br>
and end up with the less preferred option. Or was there an opinion I<br>
missed?<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Stuart Bishop <<a href="mailto:stuart@stuartbishop.net">stuart@stuartbishop.net</a>><br>
<a href="http://www.stuartbishop.net/" target="_blank">http://www.stuartbishop.net/</a><br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>