[UA-discuss] UA-discuss Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2
Don Hollander
don.hollander at icann.org
Thu Aug 4 20:34:00 UTC 2016
> On 5/08/2016, at 4:23 AM, Harish Chowdhary <harish at nixi.in> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> This is my first post in the list and i am not sure ,the questions i am going to ask ,are relevant to ongoing discussion.Kindly help me to find out the answer or kindly direct me to right location if i am not asking at correct platform.
>
> 1. I would like to know number of users having internationalized email IDs across the world.
Just to be clear,
You have email addresses that use IDNs - local part at idn.idn
You can also have email addresses that use Unicode in the local part - unicode at idn.idn or unicode at ascii.ascii
EAI is focused on the second part.
I don’t know of any studies that show how many internationalised email address are in use. A small proportion of all email addresses for sure.
> 2. Is there any report or survey by ICANN or any other organization on the demand of Internationalized e-mail ID’s.
There are a number of places where you can find registration numbers for IDN TLDs that have part of the new gTLD program. Some of the IDN ccTLDs may also publish registration numbers.
> 3. Do we have any case study of successful deployment of internationalized e-mail.
There are a number of email software and services providers that support EAI (email address internationalisation) to various extents:
Coremail
Horde Project
Microsoft Outlook 2016 for PC
Gmail - to some extent
Apple Mail - to some extent
Throughway in Thailand are working on a solution
There’s another group in Taiwan - OpenMail I think
The Saudis have an EAI test environment
PostFix (an MTA) is EAI Ready
Exim is also working on an EAI solution
We have a project planned for this year to evaluate the most popular email applications and services providers to test their EAI readiness. Toward that end, we expect to send out a survey later this month asking for your favourite email platforms.
>
> Harish Chowdhary
> National Internet Exchange of India (NIXI)
>
> From: ua-discuss-request at icann.org
> Sent: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 17:30:22
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: UA-discuss Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Naomi Pearce)
> 2. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Andrew Sullivan)
> 3. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Naomi Pearce)
> 4. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Mark Svancarek)
> 5. Notes from UA Coordination Group Call (Don Hollander)
> 6. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Dusan Stojicevic)
> 7. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Andrew Sullivan)
> 8. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience? (Dusan Stojicevic)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:44:07 -0700
> From: Naomi Pearce <naomi at well.com>
> To: UA-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID:
> <r470Ps-1095i-650F63827FE14E858BEE71247142E11D at 75-101-50-192.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I keep tripping up on referring to language being "non-" something.
>
> Here's why. If I ask you to think of an elephant that isn't
> blue, what's the first thing you think of? Often, it's a blue
> elephant first, then one works to get to non-blue.
>
> In sports, coaches deal with this all the time. For example, if
> a coach tells a baseball pitcher to avoid pitching low and
> inside, sure enough, the tendency will be low, or inside.
> Therefore, the coach is the one who has to do the translation of
> what it is they actually want, rather than what they don't want
> -- in the example, to pitch to the outside, or to pitch higher.
> [Feel free to adjust the example to any sport, or coached
> activity, that you like.]
>
> In our case, I ask myself if it would be better to focus on what
> the language is, rather than isn't. That's where it gets challenging.
>
> A half-step would be talking about languages 'beyond' English.
> It still has a fair amount of the blue-elephant problem.
>
> I think 'domains in world languages' is heading in the right
> direction, though it's a tad dense in that I have no idea what a
> 'world language' is unless I mentally work really hard. Ergo,
> some brainstormed notions below... take what you need and leave
> the rest.
>
> On 7/22/16 at 12:41 PM, jothan at jothan.com (Jothan Frakes) wrote:
>
> >Not sure if 'domains in world languages'
>
> In case any of these suggestions or ideas resonate, how about:
>
> 'domains in all languages'
> 'domains in all written languages'
> 'domains in every language'
> 'domains in any major language'
> 'domains in any language used in the world'
> 'domains in most major languages'
> 'domains in many kinds of languages'
> 'domains in various languages used in the world'
> 'domains in the native languages used in the world'
> 'domains in native languages'
> 'domains in local languages'
>
> Just thoughts...
>
> --
> TTFN, tah tah for now,
>
> Naomi Pearce
> Pearce Communications
> 510/528-0824
>
> ***********************************************************
> "Any fool can farm flatland!"
> -- Walter Camp
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:07:14 -0400
> From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID: <20160803190714.GM18305 at mx2.yitter.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:44:07AM -0700, Naomi Pearce wrote:
> > I keep tripping up on referring to language being "non-" something.
>
> And again, I'll point out that language is the wrong word, no matter
> _what_ you pick.
>
> I'm not being merely bloody-minded here. Here, for instance, are the
> names in the NS set for one of my mail domains:
>
> crankycanuck.ca <http://crankycanuck.ca/>. 86400 IN NS ns3159.dns.dyn.com <http://ns3159.dns.dyn.com/>.
> crankycanuck.ca <http://crankycanuck.ca/>. 86400 IN NS ns4152.dns.dyn.com <http://ns4152.dns.dyn.com/>.
> crankycanuck.ca <http://crankycanuck.ca/>. 86400 IN NS ns1138.dns.dyn.com <http://ns1138.dns.dyn.com/>.
> crankycanuck.ca <http://crankycanuck.ca/>. 86400 IN NS ns2176.dns.dyn.com <http://ns2176.dns.dyn.com/>.
>
> Maybe if you squint, "crankycanuck" is a compound word in English.
> "DNS" might be a word, but it's not merely in English: it's the name
> of the service, and so it's a word in every language. Dyn is the name
> of my employer, so there again it's not in English. (Indeed, it's not
> in English anyway. It's pronounced "dine" as in "Dynamic Network
> Services", but any English pronunciation rule says it should be
> pronounced "din". In China, I find, it's pronounced "dee-wye-en",
> with very little pause where the hyphens are.) It's quite clear that
> ca, com, and nsNNNN are not words in English.
>
> "The writing systems of the whole world" is accurate. "Your local way
> of writing" is accurate. "The writing systems of many different
> languages" is correct. "Your language" is not, ever, period.
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:26:24 -0700
> From: Naomi Pearce <naomi at well.com>
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID:
> <r470Ps-1095i-EAE56438A4C24C09BB6524F885603E1C at 75-101-50-192.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Nice! Good stuff.
>
> On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs at anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > "Your local way
> > of writing" is accurate.
>
> > "The writing systems of many different
> > languages" is correct.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:57:39 +0000
> From: Mark Svancarek <marksv at microsoft.com>
> To: Naomi Pearce <naomi at well.com>, "ua-discuss at icann.org"
> <ua-discuss at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID:
> <CO2PR03MB2135078B7A94C64A78CE335AD1060 at CO2PR03MB2135.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> "Your local way of writing" is terrific.
> It's accurate and concise and conveys the emotional impact that people should get when they realize the benefit they will receive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Naomi Pearce
> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:26 PM
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?
>
> Nice! Good stuff.
>
> On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs at anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > "Your local way
> > of writing" is accurate.
>
> > "The writing systems of many different languages" is correct.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 02:02:52 +0000
> From: Don Hollander <don.hollander at icann.org>
> To: "ua-coordination at icann.org" <ua-coordination at icann.org>
> Cc: "UA-discuss at icann.org" <UA-discuss at icann.org>
> Subject: [UA-discuss] Notes from UA Coordination Group Call
> Message-ID: <638CC3AB-CE8F-4F0A-A8BD-09485ECAD787 at icann.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Attached are the notes from today?s UASG Coordination Group call.
>
> Please review and advise for accuracy and completeness.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Don
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 04:55:53 +0200
> From: "Dusan Stojicevic" <dusan at dukes.in.rs>
> To: "'Mark Svancarek'" <marksv at microsoft.com>, "'Naomi Pearce'"
> <naomi at well.com>, "'ua-discuss'" <UA-discuss at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID: <020201d1edfb$b7df3d50$279db7f0$@dukes.in.rs>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Few thoughts>
> "Your local way of writing", without referring to specific script, can be understood like cursive.
> Also, what is local way of writing for China - vertical (which is traditional one)? Simplified script or ...?
> Or - "Oh, I don't need to write those dots in domain name, I can use without them and put the dot at the end of the sentence" :).
> There is a lot of meanings for "Your local way of writing", so "accurate" is under a question.
>
> Secondly, "Your local way of writing", without referring to specific script, put "emotional impact" in a position where it depends on the person who say that and who is in the audience.
> Do You mean Cyrillic, or Thai, or some other script, or all... Can be confusing.
> Person - if it's a native English speaker, probably ok. If it's me or other non-native English speaker - does it means that Cyrillic is excluded, or it's about just a domestic, local script.
> And, you have better knowledge about PR for sure, but - "Your" without referring to specific script CAN be offensive sometime - depends on the audience and "the moment".
>
> If it's written - it creates another confusing dimension. Let say, do we have Rusyn Cyrillic? Are we sure about ALL scripts for all possible readers of that doc?
> Or simply: "Oh, Serbia (or name it) is a small country, probably there is no Serbian script there".
> And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.
>
> We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all, which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...
>
> My two cents...
> Dusan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mark Svancarek via UA-discuss
> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 10:58 PM
> To: Naomi Pearce <naomi at well.com>; ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?
>
> "Your local way of writing" is terrific.
> It's accurate and concise and conveys the emotional impact that people should get when they realize the benefit they will receive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Naomi Pearce
> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:26 PM
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?
>
> Nice! Good stuff.
>
> On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs at anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > "Your local way
> > of writing" is accurate.
>
> > "The writing systems of many different languages" is correct.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:05:16 -0400
> From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID: <20160804030516.GR18305 at mx2.yitter.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 04:55:53AM +0200, Dusan Stojicevic wrote:
> > And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.
> >
>
> I don't know what it would mean to try to exclude ASCII from the DNS.
> In a registry, I suppose you could accept only U-labels for
> registration. That wouldn't constrain subordinate names anyway.
>
> > We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all, which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...
> >
>
> Well, it needs not to be actually wrong, too. Domain names aren't in
> a language, and the repetition of the trope that this or that domain
> name is "in" some language is doing a lot of harm. It leads people to
> believe in variant systems, tests of meaningfulness of domain names,
> and other fairy stories that create lots of opportunities for demands
> that cannot be satisfied. If the goal of this project is universal
> acceptance, then we'd best not create conditions where we make it even
> more likely people will reject these domain names.
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 06:20:03 +0200
> From: "Dusan Stojicevic" <dusan at dukes.in.rs>
> To: <ua-discuss at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
> a non-technical audience?
> Message-ID: <023c01d1ee07$79ee7ef0$6dcb7cd0$@dukes.in.rs>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I apologize for the first thing, probably I was not precise. We don't know
> who is reading (or is in the audience), and if we assume that all people can
> read this doc (or hear this term), then we include "everybody" - meaning
> also those who use ASCII in "local way of writing". And we are trying to
> find something to represent "non-ASCII".
> For the second one, I agree to the point that it needs not to be actually
> wrong. For the rest, I still think that most convenient is non-English, but
> only for this target audience. I don't want to go further into discussion
> why nba.com <http://nba.com/> for those people is "in" English language, or why 123456 is a
> number for them (and that's how they remember and read this) but it's
> actually PIN which is numeric password or it can be vehicle registration
> plate with different meaning for each digit (without numeric value as a
> whole number)... Let say, we agree that we disagree on this one :)
>
> Cheers,
> Dusan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org] On
> Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
> Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 5:05 AM
> To: ua-discuss at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
> non-technical audience?
>
> On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 04:55:53AM +0200, Dusan Stojicevic wrote:
> > And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of
> all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.
> >
>
> I don't know what it would mean to try to exclude ASCII from the DNS.
> In a registry, I suppose you could accept only U-labels for registration.
> That wouldn't constrain subordinate names anyway.
>
> > We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all,
> which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...
> >
>
> Well, it needs not to be actually wrong, too. Domain names aren't in a
> language, and the repetition of the trope that this or that domain name is
> "in" some language is doing a lot of harm. It leads people to believe in
> variant systems, tests of meaningfulness of domain names, and other fairy
> stories that create lots of opportunities for demands that cannot be
> satisfied. If the goal of this project is universal acceptance, then we'd
> best not create conditions where we make it even more likely people will
> reject these domain names.
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of UA-discuss Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2
> *****************************************
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