[UA-discuss] Mixing between RTL and LTR scripts
Zied BOUZIRI
zied.bouziri at gmail.com
Wed May 9 09:11:51 UTC 2018
Thank you Raed for this beautiful explanation
2018-05-09 9:55 GMT+01:00 Raed AlFayez <rfayez at citc.gov.sa>:
> Dear Andre & All,
>
>
>
> Please allow me to resend my comments on the blog article that was shared
> by Andre in his last email:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Andre,
>
>
>
> With great interest and appreciation, I have read your posts in the
> UA-discuss mailing list as well as your recent blog article
> <http://schappo.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/arabic-email-addresses.html> on
> how to handle Arabic emails address in RTL and LTR context.
>
> Your suggestion sounds good at first glance. However, it is confusing and
> puzzling when you look at it from the point of view of an ordinary Arabic
> speaking user. Hence, I have the following comments that I would like first
> to share with you before posting them to the mailing list. I will be using
> examples to illustrate my point of view. They are demonstrated from native
> Arabic speaking point view.
>
> (Please note that I will be using pictures for the texts so that they will
> not be ruined when transferred by the email system)
>
>
>
> Consider my email address:
>
> *rfayez at citc.gov.sa <rfayez at citc.gov.sa>*
>
> As a (normal) user I can easily make out the following (correct)
> assumptions regardless of the text direction:
>
> 1. The user part is always to the left-side of the sign (@): *rfayez*
>
> 2. The domain name is always to the right-side of the sign (@): *citc.gov.sa
> <http://citc.gov.sa>*
>
> 3. A domain name is arranged in a well-defined label hierarchy where
> a TLD is always the rightmost label of the domain name: *.sa*
>
> So I will use my email address as is (*rfayez at citc.gov.sa
> <rfayez at citc.gov.sa>*) without changing its direction or swapping
> between its parts. Consider the following examples where my email address
> is used in different text writing directions:
>
>
>
>
>
> As you can see, regardless of the text direction (LTR or RTL) the email
> address maintain its form (i.e., user at domain.TLD). This allows the user
> easily construct and deconstruct email addresses correctly without
> confusing and mixing up its parts. For example, the following set of
> examples:
>
> care.sa at car.com
>
> car.com at care.sa
>
>
>
> will be straightforwardly interpreted as follows (no confusion
> whatsoever):
>
>
>
> Now let us repeat the examples using an Arabic email address:
>
>
>
>
>
> Here a native Arabic-speaking user would make the following assumptions as
> well regardless of the text direction:
>
> 1. The user part is always to the right-side of the sign (@): *اندري*
>
> 2. The domain name is always to the left-side of the sign (@):
> *رسيل.السعودية*
>
> 3. A domain name is arranged in a well-defined label hierarchy where
> an Arabic TLD is always the leftmost label of the domain name: *.السعودية*
>
>
>
> Therefore, the given Arabic email address:
>
> should be used without changing its direction or swapping between its
> parts to maintain its form and hence remove any confusion or
> misinterpretation.
>
>
>
> Consider the following examples where the previous email address
>
> is used in different text writing directions:
>
> As you can see, regardless of the text direction (LTR or RTL) the email
> address maintain its form.
>
> This allows the user easily construct and deconstruct email addresses
> correctly without confusing and mixing up its parts. For example, the
> following set of examples:
>
>
>
>
>
> will be straightforwardly interpreted as follows (no confusion
> whatsoever):
>
> However, if your suggestion is followed then the above email addresses
> will be used as follows depending in the text direction:
>
> and frankly this is absolutely confusing.
>
>
>
>
>
> As an Arabic speaker we were dealing with LTR and RTL together long time
> ago (far before Computers where invented) because our Arabic alphabetic is
> RTL while the Arabic numbers are LTR.
>
>
>
> So if I want to write the following sentience in Arabic "*My salary is **321
> **Pound*" I will write it like this:
>
> [image: cid:image002.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
> Or
>
> [image: cid:image004.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
> And *not* like this:
>
> [image: cid:image010.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
> Nor
>
> [image: cid:image012.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
> Since to any Arabic user the last two images means "*My salary is **123 *
> *Pound*"!
>
>
>
> Later, when computer was introduced in our region (1980s) we used to write
> English names within the Arabic text without chaining their direction. In
> other words, if I want to write the following sentence in Arabic (without
> Arabizing the English names) "*We welcome the interest of Mr. **André
> Schappo **in the Arabic language*" then I will write it like this:
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image015.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
> *not* like this:
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image017.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
>
>
> And *definitely* *not* like this:
>
> [image: cid:image021.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
>
>
> Moreover, when the internet was introduced (1990s) we used to write
> domains and email addresses in a similar manner and as what I have
> explained to you in my previous email.
>
>
>
> I hope that I have clarified the view of an Arabic speaker regarding your
> thoughts on how to handle RTL in LTR context and vice versa.
>
>
>
> BTW the following represent a sample of tons of examples form famous
> Newspapers inside the Arabic world:
>
>
>
> http://www.alriyadh.com/975687
>
> [image: cid:image024.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
>
>
> http://www.albayan.ae/economy/last-deal/2011-12-09-1.1551679
>
> [image: cid:image025.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
>
>
> http://aitmag.ahram.org.eg/News/38238.aspx
>
> [image: cid:image026.jpg at 01D18AA7.51F1AEE0]
>
>
>
> With best regards,
>
> Raed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* UA-discuss [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Andre
> Schappo
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 08, 2018 6:49 PM
> *To:* ua-discuss at icann.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [UA-discuss] Mixing between RTL and LTR scripts
>
>
>
>
>
> Time to revive a blog article which I wrote in March 2016😀 My blog
> article is about presentation of Arabic Email addresses ➜
> schappo.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/arabic-email-addresses.html Using this
> presentation method would make components of an email address or domain
> name clearer even when mixing LTR and RTL
>
>
>
> André Schappo
>
>
>
> On 5 May 2018, at 13:03, Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila <agalila at mcit.gov.eg>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> So how could any application process the domain name !! It will be RTL or
> LTR !!
>
> Ex Abdo.عبدو.Ahmed
>
> Where is the 1st label !!! Is it Abdo or Ahmed !!!
>
>
>
> Consider if the domain name starts with RTL text !! Or RTL in the middle
> !!! Or at the end !!!
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 5, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> In the same label, it's mostly a bad idea (there's some discussion of this
> in the bidi document). But my point was about domain names, not individual
> labels.
>
>
>
> A
>
>
>
> --
>
> Please excuse my clumbsy thums
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> On May 5, 2018 04:29:05 Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila <agalila at mcit.gov.eg>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew, Thanks for your below reply , I spend a lot of time try to do
> some mixing examples between RTL and LTR within the same label, what I got
> is strange and unclear
>
> Label as a result for ex.
>
> عبدالمنعم-Abdo@سجل.مصر
>
> Abdoعبدالمنعم.مصر
>
> … etc
>
> Many issues you cannot imagine , also another thing using dot in RTL
> context or in LTR context will give you different labels although they must
> be the same.
>
> To be away from the display issues we get if we mix RTL and LTR code points
>
> in the same labels.
>
>
>
> Take a look here link <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5564>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: UA-discuss [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org
> <ua-discuss-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 2:57 PM
> To: John Levine <john.levine at standcore.com>; Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila <
> agalila at mcit.gov.eg>
> Cc: Ahmed Bakhat Masood (ahmedbakhat at pta.gov.pk) <ahmedbakhat at pta.gov.pk>;
> ua-discuss at icann.org; Ahmed Bakhat (ahmedbakhat at yahoo.com) <
> ahmedbakhat at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Mixing between RTL and LTR scripts
>
>
>
> Also I don't know how you disallow script mixing for domain names. IDNA is
> label by label. The DNS is distributed, so there's no way to prevent
> mixing, is there?
>
>
>
> A
>
>
>
> --
>
> Please excuse my clumbsy thums
>
> ----------
>
> On May 4, 2018 05:36:02 "John Levine" <john.levine at standcore.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> I hope you all doing well, after back to TF-AIDN "Task
> Force Of Arabic
>
> >> IDNs", I got the following regards to mixing LTR and RTL
> texts within the
>
> >> same label.
>
> >> - Mixing between different scripts is not allowed for domain
> names
>
> >> and email addresses
>
> >> - Numbers at the middle or at the end of the RTL domain name is
>
> >> allowed.
>
> >>
>
> >> To be away from the display issues we get if we mix RTL and LTR code
> points
>
> >> in the same labels.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks. I think this clarifies the point that we have no advice on
>
> > displaying e-mail addresses, since mailboxes are not domain names and are
>
> > not labels and are not subject to IDNA2008.
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > John Levine, john.levine at standcore.com
>
> > Standcore LLC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 🌏 🌍 🌎
> André Schappo
> 小山@电邮.在线?Subject=你好小山😜
> schappo.blogspot.co.uk
> twitter.com/andreschappo
> weibo.com/andreschappo?is_all=1
> groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/computer-science-curriculum-
> internationalization
>
>
>
--
*cordially*, *مع تحياتي*
*Zied BOUZIRI*، *زياد بوزيري*
ISET Charguia, Tunisie
www.bouziri.tn
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