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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Haha, I we added that in after discussing open dot for so long
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;color:windowtext">😉</span><span style="color:windowtext"> definitely supports your conclusion that the list might grow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><i>(Interesting, I just noticed that UASG007 also recommends treating the Arabic full stop character “<span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span lang="AR-SA" dir="RTL"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span>۔</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>”
(U+06D4) as a label separator. UTS #46 and RFC5885 don't mention that.)<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext"> Jim DeLaHunt [mailto:jfrom.uasg@jdlh.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 6, 2017 4:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Svancarek <marksv@microsoft.com>; ua-discuss@icann.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Simon Cousins <simon@allegravita.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [UA-discuss] The Open Dot as a label delimiter in Chinese and Japanese<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Mark:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thank you for these citations. I will make a note of them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So, <a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc5895.txt&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C7f16bcc27c0a4257dd5008d52575d27b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636456110338458307&sdata=3Hr0mMmmxpgY1tIdPefQxToYwhRifWwfiRchY8TCIAY%3D&reserved=0">
RFC5895 "Mapping Characters for Internationalized Domain Names in Applications (IDNA) 2008"</a>, section 2 "The General Procedure", says,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>4. If an implementation of this mapping is also performing the step of separation of the parts of a domain name into labels by using the FULL STOP character (U+002E), the IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP character (U+3002) can be mapped to the FULL STOP before label
separation occurs. There are other characters that are used as "full stops" that one could consider mapping as label separators, but their use as such has not been investigated thoroughly. This step was chosen because some input mechanisms do not allow the
user to easily enter proper label separators. Only the IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP character (U+3002) is added in this mapping because the authors have not fully investigated the applicability of other characters and the environments where they should and should
not be considered domain name label separators.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>And <a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unicode.org%2Freports%2Ftr46%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C7f16bcc27c0a4257dd5008d52575d27b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636456110338458307&sdata=G8ovQyvvZLu9xbGiS%2FGx5qJWA%2BcPT0uXpwu51WTnJgs%3D&reserved=0">
UTS #46 "Unicode IDNA Compatibility Processing"</a>, section 2.3 "Notation", says,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>In this document, a label is a substring of a domain name. That substring is bounded on both sides by either the start or the end of the string, or any of the following characters, called label-separators:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
U+002E ( . ) FULL STOP<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
U+FF0E ( <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">．</span> ) FULLWIDTH FULL STOP<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
U+3002 ( <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">。</span> ) IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
U+FF61 ( <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">｡</span> ) HALFWIDTH IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</blockquote>
<p>From my point of view as a UASG explainer, this is good an sufficient grounding for a recommendation that apps treat U+3002 as a label separator. I would go further and warn people that this list might grow; that U+FF0E and U+FF61 may be on their way.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It would good to have a footnote somewhere linking our recommendation to those documents. I see UASG007 cites RFC5895 in general (I don't see a citation to UTS #46 in UASG007). Actually, this probably belongs more in a wiki somewhere, a list of the things
UASG recommends and why we recommend them. This will help us as we bring more UA explainers up to speed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(Interesting, I just noticed that UASG007 also recommends treating the Arabic full stop character “<span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span lang="AR-SA" dir="RTL"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span>۔</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>”
(U+06D4) as a label separator. UTS #46 and RFC5885 don't mention that.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thank you for the citations, Mark. Best regards,<br>
—Jim DeLaHunt, Vancouver, Canada<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-11-06 15:42, Mark Svancarek wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Correction, UTS#46 <u>and</u> RFC5895</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext"> Mark Svancarek
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 6, 2017 3:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Simon Cousins' <a href="mailto:simon@allegravita.com"><simon@allegravita.com></a>; Jim DeLaHunt
<a href="mailto:jfrom.uasg@jdlh.com"><jfrom.uasg@jdlh.com></a>; <a href="mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org">
ua-discuss@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [UA-discuss] The Open Dot as a label delimiter in Chinese and Japanese</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I advocated open dot equivalency based on UTS#46 when writing UASG007.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org">ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Simon Cousins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 1:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jim DeLaHunt <<a href="mailto:jfrom.uasg@jdlh.com">jfrom.uasg@jdlh.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org">ua-discuss@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [UA-discuss] The Open Dot as a label delimiter in Chinese and Japanese</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">When typing in Chinese using any (probably all) of the common text input methods, hitting the period key on a standard keyboard will always insert an open dot.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="74" height="42" style="width:.7708in;height:.4375in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D3571C.04573040"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I have two browsers installed on this Windows 10 PC, Chrome and Edge. Both, when typing Chinese into the browser URL bar, insert an ascii dot when the period key is hit. I’d assume just about all contemporary
browsers would do this. It’d be crazy annoying to the user, otherwise.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="174" height="39" style="width:1.8125in;height:.4062in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image002.png@01D3571C.04573040"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Best, S.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Simon Cousins | </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:DengXian;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">夏明</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">CEO, Allegravita LLC & </span>
<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">北京</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">乐</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">微塔</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">营销</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">咨</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">询</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">有限公司</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">USA: 32 W 39 St 4<sup>th</sup> Floor, New York NY 10018</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">China: </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">北京市海淀区</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">苏</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">州街</span><span style="color:windowtext">55</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">号</span><span style="color:windowtext">3</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">层</span><span style="color:windowtext">01-A509</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:simon@allegravita.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">simon@allegravita.com</span></a><span style="color:windowtext"> | +1 347 850-3360 | +86 139 1010-5401</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org">ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim DeLaHunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 4:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org">ua-discuss@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [UA-discuss] The Open Dot as a label delimiter in Chinese and Japanese</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Don:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>> Does anyone have reference or even perception to how widely used the Open Dot is in Chinese, Japanese and/or other script?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Sure. Starting references: <<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FChinese_punctuation%23Punctuation_marks&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C8d419c38ce284eb2e43108d522f8c30f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636453374225236452&sdata=ZFgnt3TdVzU1W80MyIs%2B6tzai2ZUAxfsr2%2FjMFArn54%3D&reserved=0">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_punctuation#Punctuation_marks</a>>,
<<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJapanese_punctuation%23Full_stop&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C8d419c38ce284eb2e43108d522f8c30f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636453374225236452&sdata=yPIWa2HFbh4iltGvScYIEyhee%2FBjESGwSRJ3YfcZYqo%3D&reserved=0">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_punctuation#Full_stop</a>>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In my experience developing publishing software and fonts for high-end Japanese typography, I can confirm that U+3002 [<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:DengXian;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">。</span>] is routine in Japanese language text.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>However.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In English language orthography, the U+002E FULL STOP [.] is used as a delimiter between fields of structured data, as well as a sentence ending punctuation. Consider a phone number like 212.555.1212, or a date like 3.11.17 . I think it is clearer to understand
the U+002E between labels of a domain name as a delimiter rather than as a sentence-ending full stop.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In Chinese and Japanese language orthography, what are the marks conventionally used as delimiters in everyday text?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>> UASG004 states “We expect software to transform the ‘open dot’ to a standard ASCII dot “.”, thus making use of the already registered domain name.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Do we know what the source is for this expectation? Did it come from perspectives informed about Chinese and Japanese culture? Did this perspective show that U+3002 [<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:DengXian;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">。</span>] would
be preferred as a delimiter between domain name labels, over U+002E [.] or other punctuation? Or did we at UASG make a guess at the Chinese and Japanese perspective?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If we are not confident that U+3002 [<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:DengXian;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">。</span>] is preferred as a delimiter by people in those cultures, I think UASG should consider very carefully before advocating its use.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> —Jim DeLaHunt, Vancouver, Canada<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-11-02 17:10, Don Hollander wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">G’day: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The UASG has in the past indicated that good practice is to treat the Open Dot as a label delimiter, just like the traditional full-stop.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The ideographic full stop (U+3002 [<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-family:DengXian;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">。</span>]) is used in languages such as Chinese or Japanese to mark
the end of a sentence. UASG004 states “We expect software to transform the ‘open dot’ to a standard ASCII dot “.”, thus making use of the already registered domain name.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We found that some browsers do this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As we go through the Linkification review, we’re not seeing this happen for social media communications apps.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does anyone have reference or even perception to how widely used the Open Dot is in Chinese, Japanese and/or other script?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don Hollander <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Universal Acceptance Steering Group<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Skype: don_hollander<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> --Jim DeLaHunt, <a href="mailto:jdlh@jdlh.com">jdlh@jdlh.com</a> <a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.jdlh.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C8d419c38ce284eb2e43108d522f8c30f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636453374225236452&sdata=wB7AvvGI%2Bc7vWjHrf0WPk3MxR3O3gutJTrscokifXSo%3D&reserved=0">http://blog.jdlh.com/</a> (<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjdlh.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C8d419c38ce284eb2e43108d522f8c30f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636453374225236452&sdata=0Kh%2Bbj0hMpXvyjX2ACfXvLfWTWH0oAIjz1G6RtU15Oc%3D&reserved=0">http://jdlh.com/</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> multilingual websites consultant<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> --Jim DeLaHunt, <a href="mailto:jdlh@jdlh.com">jdlh@jdlh.com</a> <a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.jdlh.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C7f16bcc27c0a4257dd5008d52575d27b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636456110338458307&sdata=CgzaZG%2BG3TO3MjuR%2Fwkfdpz43RKeKri4qfVXWArg7uU%3D&reserved=0">http://blog.jdlh.com/</a> (<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjdlh.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C7f16bcc27c0a4257dd5008d52575d27b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636456110338458307&sdata=fqjuw8WROKPtU93PE5i18NiZYMZhikTNv441RaPVk4k%3D&reserved=0">http://jdlh.com/</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> multilingual websites consultant<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre> 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953<o:p></o:p></pre>
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