[WP2] current state of IRP checklist plus sample bylaws language and the comment summary

Tue Jul 28 16:57:01 UTC 2015

I think of the standing panel as a body, not a list of names

J. Beckwith Burr
Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer
1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006
Office: + 1.202.533.2932  Mobile:  +1.202.352.6367  / becky.burr at neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz> / www.neustar.biz

From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:32 PM
To: David Post <david.g.post at gmail.com<mailto:david.g.post at gmail.com>>
Cc: Malcolm Hutty <malcolm at linx.net<mailto:malcolm at linx.net>>, Becky Burr <becky.burr at neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz>>, "WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org>" <WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [WP2] current state of IRP checklist plus sample bylaws language and the comment summary

Currently, our document states that rules and procedures will be developed as follows (Section 13) : A "CCWG sub group, assisted by counsel and appropriate experts, will continue to work on implementation details and will work with initial panel and the IRP provider on rules of procedure, etc. as part of WS2."  So, there will be input from the initial [standing] panel in the rules and procedures (if the optimistic assumption that an initial panel will be in place early enough to work with WS2 holds true).

We could move the issue of filing deadline into WS2.  That will allow for much more deliberate consideration, and draw in the panelists as you suggest.  While the current IRP Bylaw states the filing deadline, this is not a requirement.  The new Bylaw could simply state that a filing deadline will be set forth in the IRP Rules and Procedures.  (It could also be added to revised Bylaws as part of WS2, should we care to give it that extra protection).

Beyond the immediate question, I think David's email raises the question whether the "standing panel" is merely a list of names, or is it a body that can take actions (outside of sitting panels and en banc appeals)?  The language from Section 13 contemplates some administrative action, but our proposal is silent on anything else.  The current IRP had all the administration taking place with the outside provider; we may not want to stick with that paradigm (or if we do, we may want a more ministerial role for the outside provider, and a more substantive role for the panel as an administrator).  If the standing panel is an administrative body, then it could be empowered to recommend (to the community, possibly with approval by the Board) revisions to the Rules and Procedures on its own initiative and as part of a periodic review.  Right now, we have no procedure for revising the Rules and Procedures (other than an ATRT-style periodic review).  This may all be WS2, but it's worth highlighting now for future thought.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:51 AM, David Post <david.g.post at gmail.com<mailto:david.g.post at gmail.com>> wrote:

To me, the question is: why do we think we're in a better position, now, to determine what an appropriate limitations period should be, than the IRP itself will be, when it sees how the process works in practice?

There's an awful lot we don't (and can't) know about how this process actually will work, all of which bears upon the question of what a reasonable limitations period should be: will the IRP be flooded with claims, or will it have little to do?  will there be lots of frivolous claims, or few?  lots of claims asking it to do things/decide cases it's not authorized to hear, or few?  what kind of "pleading requirements" is it going to impose on claimants before a case can be opened?

Perhaps there's a concern that the IRP will make the "wrong" decision - that it will adopt a too-short period (because it doesn't want additional work) or a too-long period (because it's power-hungry and wants to involve itself in ICANN affairs more than is appropriate).  I can see that - though it hearkens back to my views about the importance of making the IRP a true institution within ICANN rather than just a faceless collection of arbitrators who are mostly concerned with other things; I think part of the WG's task is to design an IRP that will make sensible decisions, including decisions about its own procedures and processes, down the road.

I share the concern about claims being open forever - but a 30 day period swings much too far, in my opinion, in the other direction.  It's an alarmingly short period of time - particularly if there are complicated filing requirements (as there well may be).  if there's going to be a limit stated in the bylaws, i'd suggest making it a long period to start with (no claims after 1 year, or even 2 years), subject to the IRP's power to revise.

[If I remember correctly, the IRP's own rules/procedures have to be approved by the Community - is that right?  If not, it should be - that's a better way to protect against ill-advised IRP procedures/processes than having us try to spell them out in advance, imo.

David

At 05:08 PM 7/27/2015, Greg Shatan wrote:
The IRP can determine whether a limitation period bars an IRP, but they need to be applying some defined period, and this period needs to be consistent for all complainants.

If there is no time period (or formula for arriving at a time period) for IRPs stated in the bylaws (or in the rules and procedures, if we want to punt a little bit), no IRP will be barred.Â  There would be no basis for a bar.Â  Instead, it will be available to a complainant for all time.

I don't think that sounds good to me.

Greg

On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Malcolm Hutty <malcolm at linx.net<mailto:malcolm at linx.net>> wrote:

On 27/07/2015 21:43, Burr, Becky wrote:
> That seems sensible to me

So do you intend to remove the existing limit, and specify that the IRP
can itself determine a reasonable time-bar?

That seems quite a big piece of discretion to hand it: what it decides
will affect the way the IRP looks quite a lot.

For my part, whatever the time limit should be, it is very important
that the clock only start ticking when the applicant has experiencd
whatever it is they wish to complain about, or is aware that they are
likely to experience it. The present approach - starting the clock when
the Board takes its decision - is no longer fit for purpose. It was
designed for when IRP cases were effectively limited to contracted parties.

We do not want our time limit to effectively debar non-contracted
parties who know nothing about ICANN from ever bringing a complaint.

I think this should be specified in the Bylaws.

>
> J. Beckwith Burr
>
> *Neustar, Inc. /* Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer
>
> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006
>
> Office: + 1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932>Â  Mobile:
> +1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367>Â  / becky.burr at neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz>
> < mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz> / www.neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
>
>
> From: David Post <david.g.post at gmail.com<mailto:david.g.post at gmail.com> < mailto:david.g.post at gmail.com>>
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM
> To: Becky Burr <becky.burr at neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz> < mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz>>
> Cc: Bruce Tonkin < Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au<mailto:Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au>
> < mailto:Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au>>, "WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org>
> < mailto:WP2 at icann.org>" <WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org> < mailto:WP2 at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [WP2] current state of IRP checklist plus sample bylaws
> language and the comment summary
>
> Isn't this something that we could leave for the IRP itself to deal with
> in its processes/procedures?Â  Why do we have to specify a limitations
> period in advance?
> David
>
>
> At 12:42 PM 7/25/2015, Burr, Becky wrote:
>> Content-Language: en-US
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  boundary="_000_D1D9347138C0Ebeckyburrneustarbiz_"
>>
>> The more I think about this 30 day thing, the more concerned I get –
>> we need to provide for tolling the period for the pre filing mediation/CEP
>>
>> J. Beckwith Burr
>>
>> *Neustar, Inc. /* Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer
>>
>> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006
>>
>> Office: + 1.202.533.2932<tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932>Â  Mobile:Â  +1.202.352.6367<tel:%2B1.202.352.6367>Â  /
>> becky.burr at neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz> < mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz> /
>> www.neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz> < http://www.neustar.biz/>
>>
>> From: Bruce Tonkin < Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au<mailto:Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au>
>> < mailto:Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au>>
>> Date: Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 3:31 AM
>> To: "WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org> < mailto:WP2 at icann.org>" <WP2 at icann.org<mailto:WP2 at icann.org>
>> < mailto:WP2 at icann.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [WP2] current state of IRP checklist plus sample bylaws
>> language and the comment summary
>>
>> Hello Becky,
>>
>> The proposed bylaws language change with respect to the timing of an
>> IRP proceeding:
>>
>> â€œA request for A request for independent review must be filed within
>> thirty days of the posting
>> of the minutes of the Board meeting (and the accompanying Board Briefing
>> Materials, if available) thatthe requesting party becoming aware of
>> the action
>> that it contends demonstrates that ICANN violated its Bylaws or
>> Articles of
>> Incorporation. Consolidated requests may be appropriate when the causal
>> connection between the circumstances of the requests and the harm is
>> the same
>> for each of the requesting parties.â€
>>
>> How would you determine when a â€œrequesting partyâ€ becomes aware of an
>> action?Â  Â  Â I expect it would be hard to determine when that event
>> would happen – so this feels a little like that a party caan file at
>> any time after a decision – potentially years later.Â   Â  This could
>> have quite negative effect on a third party.Â  Â E.g if a new gTLD was
>> allocated to an applicant, and then the requesting party complains
>> years later.
>>
>> Shouldnâ€™t there be some limit based on what is reasonable – e.g 30
>> days after the requesting party would reasonably become aware â€¦ etc
>>
>> Alternatively – maybe leave the current language and increease the time
>> period – e.g. from 30 to 60 or 90 days.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bruce Tonkin
>>
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>
> *******************************
> David G Post - Senior Fellow, Open Technology Institute/New America
> Foundation
> blog (Volokh Conspiracy) http://www.washingtonpost.com/people/david-post<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_people_david-2Dpost&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=LX6v0h5o5q_9ORlst2a1WP_BhxPSoMVotfdg12qKuTo&e=>
> < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_people_david-2Dpost&d=AwMFAw&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=KHtNBFAfs2Wsc0WBFs8uEwqFYvujsUnnN7VF0NWZxXM&s=xaEAsKtTS7zpk7-yKBnscwHrcrjC9EVm7Oh262_h49M&e= >book
> (Jefferson's Moose)Â  http://tinyurl.com/c327w2n<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_c327w2n&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=gSz3TjIN7mMPaswDg_vFLgDvTXIAx2uZtSeYf6uS3CE&e=>
> < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_c327w2n-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0&d=AwMFAw&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=KHtNBFAfs2Wsc0WBFs8uEwqFYvujsUnnN7VF0NWZxXM&s=uM7352AWlE5xVa8yoG0L-5mdpe1x-SSRtiX76IYGO50&e= >
> music http://tinyurl.com/davidpostmusic<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_davidpostmusic&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=n9bYsbaM9RhJ0p3a2ni6jKsjamUv4WqQtp16xPWwGps&e=>
> < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_davidpostmusic-25A0&d=AwMFAw&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=KHtNBFAfs2Wsc0WBFs8uEwqFYvujsUnnN7VF0NWZxXM&s=-hz2E2fMrdSb7NY0HOElRP-1Pij5y19kvB47QkcD5J4&e= >publications
> etc.Â  http://www.davidpost.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.davidpost.com&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=ML0TKcd-3qbyIMgzTEcHoSz98uCmN64S0raaGTijT8A&e=>
> < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.davidpost.com-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0-25C2-25A0_&d=AwMFAw&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=KHtNBFAfs2Wsc0WBFs8uEwqFYvujsUnnN7VF0NWZxXM&s=Orueb-zlDxfxaAOPf-NA3gwoi716R30h9Po7O6LtYEY&e= >
> *******************************
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>

--
Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523<tel:%2B44%2020%207645%203523>
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*******************************
David G Post - Senior Fellow, Open Technology Institute/New America Foundation
blog (Volokh Conspiracy) http://www.washingtonpost.com/people/david-post
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_people_david-2Dpost&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=LX6v0h5o5q_9ORlst2a1WP_BhxPSoMVotfdg12qKuTo&e=>book (Jefferson's Moose)  http://tinyurl.com/c327w2n       <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_c327w2n-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0-25A0&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=VD7zunwk5j_M58-yp4jZerml-lZXGFLRlZWbncYR-Rw&e=>
music http://tinyurl.com/davidpostmusic <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_davidpostmusic-25A0&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=ajD1nUcyJZoET2hbgV_O0YqpIYACD1I05H5NlbF7H_w&s=IsqNV1jDwP0jV_cG0LCgCj2Ioe2gCVykzDraZ5mXC68&e=> publications etc.  http://www.davidpost.com
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