<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Seun,</div><div>You asked the following question </div><div><br></div><div> <font color="#ff0000"><em>"Would ICANN be liable (using a legal term which I believe loosely mean; will they lose a court case when someone sue them on HR grounds) to HR requirements</em></font>?". </div><div><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">In order to implement that , there would a need to have criteria
to verify /examine the case before suing .</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">What are those criteria?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">What are those various cases of human rights for which we have to
establish the criteria:</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">We are still discussing those various topics which we would refer to
them as «Human Rights " they are so numerous.</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">For each case we would have different criteria than other cases.</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">Imagine we are
discussing "Freedom of Expression” </span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">Is that
freedom totally illumined? <span> </span>If yes, they
read papers of these days how some people misuse that freedom. If not, where we
have to put the bar? And what are the criteria to verify whether the thresholds
set in the Bar are not exceeded.</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">Who (which entity)
and how these threshold, if any . should by verified ?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">If proved
that the rights were not respected? do we have to first proceed with
reconsideration proposing to take remedial actions or we refer the matter
directly or through IRP to the court.</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">You also referred
that if ICANN does not respect THAT OR those Rights, but what do you mean by
ICANN?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">It it the
Board ?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">It is the
staff? Is it one or several constituencies of ICANN?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">Is it registries,
or registrars?</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="background:white;margin:0cm 0cm 6.75pt;line-height:normal;vertical-align:middle"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"arial","sans-serif";font-size:16pt">What would
the responsibilities and obligation of other entries within which registries
and registrars are associated? Under which these registries and or registrar
are governed.</span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:115%;font-size:16pt"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri">There are so many unanswered questions </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:115%;font-size:16pt"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri">Regards</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:115%;font-size:16pt"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri">Kavouss <span></span></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-09-09 8:13 GMT+02:00 Seun Ojedeji <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><p dir="ltr">Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos</p>
</span><span><p dir="ltr">On 9 Sep 2016 6:46 a.m., "Nigel Roberts" <<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> But what I am saying is, unless we find a way to ensure ICANN is seen to have a binding commitment to respect fundamental rights, which informs and is taken into account durin policy development we have a lesser solution -- in this regard -- to government involvement.<br>
></p>
</span><p dir="ltr">SO: One question that keeps popping up in my mind whenever I read text similar to the one stated above is on the actual implication of whatever HR requirements we introduce into ICANN processes; Would ICANN be liable (using a legal term which I believe loosely mean; will they lose a court case when someone sue them on HR grounds) to HR requirements?. If the answer to that question is a yes then I will only say I do not think such possibility should be allowed based on the kind of work ICANN does. HR is certainly not my area of expertise but while I love that term, I find the attempt to scribble actual text for it into a technical organisation bylaw like ICANN to be strange (perhaps it's because I have a numbering community background). </p>
<p dir="ltr">ICANN should respect HR through the true implementation of processes that has been setup by the various communities she serves. Anything that goes beyond such remit opens up another way to waste registrants money on legal issues, opens up ways to diminish the weight of existing policies, could hamper relationships that ICANN has with other bodies It serves.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I initially sign up here as an observer but had to change in order to make occasional comments. Happy deliberation.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Cheers!<br>
PS: I am copying staff so they help forward to the list incase my status has not been changed yet.<div><div class="h5"><br>
><br>
> N.<br>
> --<br>
> Nigel Roberts BSc LLB FBCS FRSA<br>
> <a href="mailto:nigel@roberts.co.uk" target="_blank">nigel@roberts.co.uk</a><br>
> <a href="tel:%2B44%201481%20520618" target="_blank" value="+441481520618">+44 1481 520618</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 08/09/16 20:47, Aikman-Scalese, Anne wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Nigel,<br>
>><br>
>> I certainly appreciate your principled approach to the advancement of<br>
>> Human Rights and thank you for all your efforts in this regard.<br>
>><br>
>> Having said that , I note that the obligations you cite are obligations<br>
>> of the State. Something else we are tangling with here is the question<br>
>> of applicable law to ICANN's jurisdiction. You are often reciting the<br>
>> law of the European Union and the law that binds Member States. But<br>
>> ICANN cannot maintain its global MS Model on the basis that it is a<br>
>> Member State of the EU. The answers to the questions we have posed to<br>
>> ICANN Legal will likely address these issues. With respect to Human<br>
>> Rights violations which occur within the EU, whether via the Internet or<br>
>> otherwise, as you know there is a forum for resolution of disputes - the<br>
>> European Court of Human Rights. The website you linked says: "The<br>
>> European Court of Human Rights considers complaints under the European<br>
>> Convention on Human Rights and decides whether ECHR rights have been<br>
>> violated. The Court interprets the Convention rights and clarifies<br>
>> their meaning."<br>
>><br>
>> ICANN is not a State and is not a court. The entire Accountability<br>
>> structure certified by NTIA depends on the proper operation of MS<br>
>> bottom-up policy-making. Please note Annex 6 states that the scope of<br>
>> our work includes " *Consistent with ICANN's existing processes and<br>
>> protocols, *consider how these new frameworks should be discussed and<br>
>> drafted*to ensure broad multistakeholder involvement in the process”*<br>
>><br>
>> (bold emphasis added)<br>
>><br>
>> Thus, I am hopeful you are not suggesting that with respect to the<br>
>> draft FOI – HR, the CCWG-ACCT can just skip GAC Advice, ALAC Advice,<br>
>> and GNSO Guidance (see Annex A-2 to the Bylaws). My own view is that<br>
>> “broad multistakeholder involvement in the process” which is “consistent<br>
>> with ICANN’s existing processes and protocols” demands submission of the<br>
>> FOI-HR to the bodies within ICANN that are responsible for<br>
>> policy-making. (As a side note, it appears to me that if the FOI-HR<br>
>> is reasonably expected to result in changes to the Registry Agreement<br>
>> terms, that will require, at the very least, a GNSO Expedited Policy<br>
>> Development Process since, “consistent with ICANN’s existing processes<br>
>> and protocols”, Consensus Policy involving contractual commitments for<br>
>> registries may only be developed via either a full Policy Development<br>
>> Process or an Expedited Policy Development Process.)<br>
>><br>
>> Anne<br>
>><br>
>> Anne E. Aikman-Scalese<br>
>><br>
>> Of Counsel<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="tel:520.629.4428" target="_blank" value="+15206294428">520.629.4428</a> office<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="tel:520.879.4725" target="_blank" value="+15208794725">520.879.4725</a> fax<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="mailto:AAikman@lrrc.com" target="_blank">AAikman@lrrc.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:AAikman@lrrc.com" target="_blank">AAikman@lrrc.com</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ______________________________<wbr>_<br>
>><br>
>> Lewis Roca Rothgerber Christie LLP<br>
>><br>
>> One South Church Avenue, Suite 700<br>
>><br>
>> Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://lrrc.com" target="_blank">lrrc.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>><br>
>> From: Nigel Roberts [mailto:<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a><wbr>]<br>
>><br>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 4:44 AM<br>
>><br>
>> To: John Curran<br>
>><br>
>> Cc: Aikman-Scalese, Anne; <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr@icann.org</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Ws2-hr] When should ICANN uphold human rights?<br>
>><br>
>> > Note that these rights may be in conflict with one another in some<br>
>><br>
>> > situations (e.g. right of free expression and right to property)<br>
>><br>
>> This is exactly what is meant in Human Rights jurisdprudence by a<br>
>> 'qualfied right'.<br>
>><br>
>> So, 'yes'.<br>
>><br>
>> N.<br>
>><br>
>> PS: In terms of the right to life being absolute, I'd suggest we can<br>
>> safely ignore that debate, since nothing ICANN does, or would reasonably<br>
>> be expected to do, would engage that right.<br>
>><br>
>> I would just note, that for Council of Europe Member States, capital<br>
>> punishment is abolished in all circumstances, and the Art 2. right is, n<br>
>> European jurisprudence one of the absolute rights,<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.ihrec.ie/training/guides/echr/section4therigh.html" target="_blank">http://www.ihrec.ie/training/<wbr>guides/echr/section4therigh.<wbr>html</a><br>
>><br>
>> In fact, I felt privileged, during my short tenure as a legislator in an<br>
>> unimportant component part of the British Isles, to actually have a vote<br>
>> on the adoption of Protocol 13, removing the last vestige of the death<br>
>> penalty, around 2003).<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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><br>
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