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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The notes, recordings and transcripts for CCWG Accountability WS2
<b>Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #7</b> – 27 September 2016 will be available here:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/x/sAC4Aw">https://community.icann.org/x/sAC4Aw</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">A copy of the
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#101C45">n</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">otes may be found below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thank you</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#101C45">.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#101C45"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#111111">With kind regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#15205F">Brenda Brewer </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#111111">MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none;border:none;padding:0in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#111111">ICANN<b>
</b>-<b> </b>Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.0pt;background:white">
<strong><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Notes</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">1. Administrivia<br>
Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.0pt;background:white;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">2. Analysis of Ruggie Principles for ICANN - discussion on UN Guiding<br>
Principles 15, 13, 19<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.0pt;background:white;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">3. AOB<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<em><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Notes including relevant elements from the chat:</span></b></em><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tijani Ben Jemaa: Support GS.<br>
Anne Aikman-Scalese: @Chris - I don't know how we can say in the FOI0HR that due diligence process and remediation process can be adopted without an ICANN policy process. Annex 6 says we must consider these items consistent with ICANN existing processes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): +1 @ Tijani<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Farzaneh Badii: b9 and c9? where is that? Vague<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: b and c seems to cross the line established in the Core Value -- "This Core Value does not obligate ICANN to enforce its human rights obligations, or the human rights
obligations of other parties, against other parties."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.0pt;background:white;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: sophism: a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: where did will land? can we have a quick summary? Have we got food for thoughts? Agreed to disagree at this point? :)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten oever: Let us move to Principle 13.<br>
David McAuley (RySG): Principle 13 - the word "address" is vague and possibly out of scope<br>
Chris LaHatte: i understand we have a specific task, so Anne, I understand the restrictions of our tasks, but I don't want adoption of empty principles<br>
Tatiano Tropina: ccTLDs cannot be included in any due diligence.<br>
Chris LaHatte: so if a cctld does something like censorship or worse can we still criticize them?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.0pt;background:white;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: @Chris - the principle is not empty if it then produces further action down the road - e.g. a requirement that PDP consider and assess the FOI-HR regardless of
the nature of the PDP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I think I agreed with you @Kavouss - "address" is vague - I'd be surprised if I did not think so before<br>
Greg Shatan: 13B is clearly out of our scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): 13(b) is very broad - seems way out of scope<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">matthew shears: yep<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Paul McGrady 2: @Avri - I don't hear anyone saying that they don't know what Mr. Ruggie is saying. Even so, isn't the first step would be to determine what human rights obligations
ICANN has under applicable law, not turning first to third party resources (especially if those resources are so ambiguous that we need their author to explain what they mean)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Chris LaHatte: @anne, as long as that happens<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever 2: @Greg + Tatiana, for ccTLDs and gTLDS or any business relations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: David, not only out of scope but opens the room for claims about<br>
Niels ten Oever 2: @Greg + Tatiana, for ccTLDs and gTLDS or any business relations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: David, not only out of scope but opens the room for claims about enforcement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: not the definition in wikipedia - it is a for of Rhetoric used to convince people of a PoV. does not need to be fallacious and does not need to confuse, can even be a educational
technique.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever 2: Paul I think only talked about ccTLDs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Niels, for any business relations because it's enforcement...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: and protection!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Agree totally Greg enforcement<br>
Paul McGrady 2: Agree with Greg. 13(b) seems to be already excluded under a clear reading of the bylaws requiring that ICANN not get involved in the business of third party enforcement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): not sure I understand the context of ccTLDs and gTLDs comment, Niels<br>
Kavous Arasteh: uncertain why people against mitigation and remediation.<br>
Avri Doria: what about in ICANN's own activities?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Paul, Greg, +1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">matthew shears: while I think Ruggie important, I believe we have to first interpret: 1) agree what "respecting human rights" means; 2) agree the "international human rights" and what
is appropriate for ICANN, and 3) agree what "applicable law" means in this case" and perhaps return to Ruggie later<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever 2: Because if I remember correctly Paul Twomey’s argument it was specifically focused on ccTLDs<br>
Niels ten Oever 2: Because if I remember correctly Paul Twomey’s argument it was specifically focused on ccTLDs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Avri, I like the wikipedia definition better and thank you for clarifying your intended meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Niels, ccTLDs or gTLDs - no matter, (b) is enforcement and protection<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): thanks @Niels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Matthew -- agree 10000%,, that is the nub of our job.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever 2: know and show as well?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Farzaneh Badii: Matt I agree. I think we should first agree on what "respecting human rights" means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: matthew shears: while I think Ruggie important, I believe we have to fiirst interpret: 1) agree what "respecting human rights" means; 2) agree the "international human
rights" and what is appropriate for ICANN, and 3) agree what "applicable law" means in this case" and perhaps return to Ruggie later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Matt, hear hear!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Bastiaan Goslings: I agree with Matt too<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: i think that if the FoI does not include the avoidance of causing harm by our activities, we might as well have a null text for the FoI.<br>
Brett Schaefer: Agree with Matt, the discussion seems to presume that Ruggie is agreed to and the starting point for the FoI. It seems to be jumping several important steps.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Avri Doria: i see absolutely nothing here that requires content regulation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: Avri+1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Chris LaHatte: +1 Avri<br>
Anne aikman-Scalese: Adopting 13 as is could take ICANN to content regulation which would be dangerous as it is outside of its mission and scope.<br>
Amdrew Mack: Support AAS - we should not be in content regulation.<br>
Paul McGrady 2: Ruggie is in the way of us actually discussing the process we should be on. Can we please start at the beginning instead of the (possible) end?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I tend to agree w Avri’s point and think we are experiencing problems trying to shoehorn Ruggie Principles into FoI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: David, agree with the latter.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Kavous Arasteh: Need prevention and mitigation otherwise it is empty words.<br>
TatianaTropina: considering all principles imply that principle 13 is clearly interpreted elsewhere and goes to enforcement and protection which is beyond our remit.<br>
Anne Aikman-Scalese: AGree with Kavouss that the FOI-HR will require lots of further discussion and application to existing ICANN processes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever 3: We are only looking at what we could like. With this we are not importing other principles. That is why we are discussing them one by one<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I think Tatiana put that well regarding 13(b)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">matthew shears: + 1 Tatiana<br>
Tatiana Tropina 2: Niels, one by one is cool but the lawyer in me always says that you have to interpret the provisions of the whole text in connection with other provisions of the same text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: i thought we had already decided by definiton that we were agains Ruggie principles<br>
Greg Shatan: these principles say ICANN's business principles should also respect Human Rights which could be an issue for ICANN.<br>
Niels ten Oever: @Greg is the document many different modalities are discussed - breaking relations with third parties should only be last resort (is what is in the Ruggie commentary).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Niels, even as a last resort this would be sometimes impossible for ICANN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Chris LaHatte: so we need to develop our own set of principles, and just use Ruggie et al as guidelines.<br>
Tatiana Tropina 2: Chris, I keep saying this<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Kavous Arasteh: (suggesting operation for the group by creating sub-teams for 13 and 15).<br>
matthew shears: I am ot sure we need to develop principles - let's agree the key focus areas of the bylaw first<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Agree, Chris. At best this is a launching pad for our consideration.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Matt, well not literally develop principles but rather develop interpretation.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
matthew shears: yes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: 13 (a) with nuances... (for the record)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Cláudio Lucena: Is there any concern on the potential scale of the adverse impacts on human rights we're looking at or are we treating all kinds of potential adverse impacts as similar?
I'm thinking a general approach that does not address the potential scale of the impacts may pose much higher risks, costs and burdens than those which could be viably and reasonably handled by businesses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Agree with Matthew, we don't need to go all the way to principles -- we do need to figure out the parameters in which we interpret ICANN's actions.<br>
Avri Doria: i think we need principles not more constraints. guidelines not prohibitions<br>
Anne Aikman-Scalese: with respect to 13A and 15A do not agree there convergence because Address is not identified.<br>
Kavouss Arasteh: I have raised the point Address is unclear.<br>
Avri Doria: what harm do people find in the word address<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: why is ia a scary word?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): what does it mean, @Avri<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Agree that we have not completed discussion of (a).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina 2: Me too. (a) is not finished. I want more of (a).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: look at, discuss and come to some conclusion about.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): then we should use such term(s)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): in my opinion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Avri Doria: it i longer to use a stock phrase than a term we defines, but ok, i guess.<br>
Bastiaan Goslings: I would at least want to add 'as required by applicable law.' to art 13a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: I would not call 15 a or 13 a as "provisionally agreed" to be part of the FOI-HR - we did not go that far.<br>
Niels ten Oever: Adjourned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<strong><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Documents Presented</span></strong><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></h3>
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