<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear All,</div><div>IO sent a personal message to co-chair and expressed my frustration and disappointment on the way that some people have created a closed circuit around the subject which trins around itself until everybody would be fully exhausted then we certainly have consensus by exhaustion tend to agree with Nigle when he argued </div><div>Quote</div><div>"<em>HOWEVER, as I have repeatedly reminded everyone, and I am beginning to feel that <font color="#ff0000">the lack of dealing with it is intentional "</font></em></div><div><em><font color="#ff0000"></font></em><span>We are facing the same situation for Jurisdiction .</span></div><div><span>The end results would be status quo</span></div><div><span>Regards</span></div><div><span>Kavouss </span></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-10-19 21:49 GMT+02:00 Nigel Roberts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">What applicable law requires a private company to respect free expression?<br>
<br>
None.<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 19/10/16 19:57, Paul McGrady wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
Thanks Nigel.<br>
<br>
I guess I just don't understand how the human rights obligations that ICANN<br>
has are no longer applicable law just because they happen to be applicable<br>
under the law. Sorry for not being able to get on board with the circular<br>
argument and dismissing the body of laws that actually already apply to<br>
ICANN before we go out looking for gap fillers. What you appear to be<br>
proposing is that we build a wall out of spackle without looking to see if a<br>
wall already exists and seeing if it might have some holes to patch.<br>
<br>
I'm not suggesting (for today's purposes) that everyone agree with me, I'm<br>
just asking that Niels include my objection to this unfruitful approach in<br>
his report to the CCWG so that they can decide if they want a pile of<br>
spackle or a patch wall at the end of our process.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.o<wbr>rg</a>] On Behalf<br>
Of Nigel Roberts<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 1:49 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Ws2-hr] Report to CCWG<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
This is where you and I part company.<br>
<br>
On a strict construction, there is no applicable law which says ICANN has to<br>
respect any of the human rights. The law just says "ICANN has to follow the<br>
law" (e.g of California).<br>
<br>
Of course this may include obligations that the the State (i.e the United<br>
States) and the state (i.e. California) place on private parties as a result<br>
of its own obligation to respect human rights, but this does not engage<br>
ICANN with fundamental rights PER SE, but with the domestic implementation<br>
thereof.<br>
<br>
Avri had it right.<br>
<br>
She said that 'all this ACTUALLY means is that ICANN must follow the law',<br>
if I am not misquoting.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
HOWEVER, as I have repeatedly reminded everyone, and I am beginning to<br>
feel that the lack of dealing with it is intentional . . .<br>
<br>
whilst true, (and the reason I argued strongly against that formulation<br>
in WS1) that is not /necessarily/ the end of the story.<br>
<br>
'Applicable law' can include international law (which does not normally<br>
bind domestically) that ICANN voluntarily agrees to be bound by.<br>
<br>
And ICANN has, it appears, done so.<br>
<br>
The analysis I prefer, which engages ICANN squarely in fundamental<br>
rights obligations is that of the learned Panellist, Judge Schwbel in<br>
ICM Registry Inc -v-ICANN (ICDR Case No. 50 117 T 00224 08) in<br>
paragraphs 57-58.<br>
<br>
From which it is clear that ICANN's founders have bound ICANN in law<br>
(i.e. California law) to respect international law.<br>
<br>
Unless someone wishes to advance a different legal authority for<br>
"applicable law".<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19/10/16 19:13, Paul McGrady wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
Thanks Niels. By saying the group has reached some sort of consensus that<br>
certain Ruggie principals may apply, you are already including overviews<br>
</blockquote>
of<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
the various views of the members of the group. I, for one, still have no<br>
idea if any of the Ruggie principals would apply since I do not know<br>
</blockquote>
whether<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
or not they are already subsumed by or preempted by California State law.<br>
</blockquote>
I<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
hope your summary will be complete enough to include that at least one<br>
person in the group believes we out to start with what applicable law is<br>
already in place before we begin opining on whether or not third party<br>
sources should govern ICANN behavior, since the bylaw makes it clear that<br>
all of our work should end up with a product that is within applicable<br>
</blockquote>
law.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
We simply have no hope at hitting the target if we insist on having<br>
</blockquote>
blinders<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
on. Not telling the Plenary CCWG that we have decided to put on blinders<br>
</blockquote>
is<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
an important thing for them to know so that they can either tell us to<br>
</blockquote>
take<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
off the blinders and look first at what human rights requirements already<br>
exist under applicable law or they can consent to us trying to put the<br>
puzzle together in the dark.<br>
<br>
As far as my suggestions for next steps, they remain the same as the first<br>
(among many) times I have brought up this subject. Ask ICANN Legal what<br>
Human Rights laws already apply to the organization. They have been<br>
operating in California for some time now and they already know the answer<br>
to this question.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul D. McGrady, Jr.<br>
<a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com" target="_blank">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Niels ten Oever [mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net" target="_blank">lists@nielstenoever.ne<wbr>t</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 11:24 AM<br>
To: Paul McGrady <<a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com" target="_blank">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:thomas@rickert.net" target="_blank">thomas@rickert.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Ws2-hr] Report to CCWG<br>
<br>
Hi Paul,<br>
<br>
I am a bit hesitant to add an overview of different views of members of<br>
</blockquote>
the<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
group, but I will try.<br>
<br>
In the meantime I would still be very interested to hear from you how you<br>
think we could approach this, with the limited resources of our group and<br>
</blockquote>
in<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
conjunction with the current understanding of applicable law we're working<br>
on.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Niels<br>
<br>
On 10/19/2016 05:31 PM, Paul McGrady wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
Thanks Niels. I would like for your summary to include notice that I<br>
have consistently called for us to evaluate what human rights<br>
principles already apply to ICANN as a result of applicable California<br>
law in order to get a baseline to begin a gap analysis, but that the<br>
request has not been acted upon by the group. Thanks.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul D. McGrady, Jr.<br>
<a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com" target="_blank">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.o<wbr>rg</a>] On<br>
Behalf Of Niels ten Oever<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:24 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
Subject: [Ws2-hr] Report to CCWG<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I hope this email finds you well. Coming Friday is the deadline for me<br>
to report to the CCWG Plenary on the progress of our Subgroup. I<br>
drafted the text underneath. Your input is more than welcome before<br>
Friday, when I will submit it to the CCWG co-chairs.<br>
<br>
All your input is of course very much appreciated.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Niels<br>
<br>
1. Executive Summary<br>
The CCWG WS2 Human Rights Subgroup has documented the historical<br>
context of the discussions on ICANNs human rights bylaw, which<br>
together with the CCWG report (especially Annex 6 and 12) form it's<br>
scope of discussion, with a Framework of Interpretation of the Human<br>
</blockquote>
Rights Bylaw as intended output.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
The subgroup is currently preparing a Framework of Interpretation<br>
which in due time will be presented to the CCWG plenary for discussion.<br>
<br>
2. Description of the Issue<br>
2.1 Current State of Play<br>
The CCWG WS2 Human Rights Subgroup started of with providing an<br>
overview of the discussions and agreements as they were made during<br>
CCWG Workstream 1 [0]. Subsequently the Subgroup has analyzed the UN<br>
Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights (UNGPs), and their<br>
relevance and applicability for ICANN. While there was consensus that<br>
some principles were relevant for the development for a Framework of<br>
Interpretation (such as 13a and 15a), it was also recognized that the<br>
UNGPs have not been designed with an organization like ICANN in mind.<br>
Therefore a drafting team is currently iteratively designing a draft<br>
Framework of Interpretation which is being discussed in weekly calls.<br>
It is expected, that at this rate, the subgroup will be able to achieve<br>
</blockquote>
the set milestones.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<br>
2.2 Supplemental Report<br>
See [0]<br>
<br>
3 Recommendation<br>
3.1 Requirements for Recommendation<br>
We haven't reached consensus on a recommendation yet.<br>
<br>
3.2 Rationale for Recommendation<br>
We haven't reached consensus on a recommendation yet.<br>
<br>
[0]<br>
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_rNkjMVJPOmYwmdr5B1_" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://docs.google.com/docume<wbr>nt/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_rNkjMVJPO<wbr>mYwmdr5B1_</a><br>
M_aNMo<br>
Zb4/edit?usp=sharing<br>
<br>
--<br>
Niels ten Oever<br>
Head of Digital<br>
<br>
Article 19<br>
<a href="http://www.article19.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.article19.org</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
--<br>
Niels ten Oever<br>
Head of Digital<br>
<br>
Article 19<br>
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