<p dir="ltr">Reading the Sidley note on applicable law , I now remember it well.<br>
It may be a guide in some aspects, but I was of the opinion (sorry if I am repeating) that applicable law is to be defined in a post contract world where ICANN operates on an international stage and we see that the term 'applicable law' does have some rank in private international law. I am no lawyer, so I have to be happy to take advice on ICANN, s relationship to the international law.<br>
rd</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 21, 2016 7:35 AM, "Niels ten Oever" <<a href="mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net">lists@nielstenoever.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">True. It seems that Sidley has used another concept of applicable law<br>
than we currently have in our definition. Therefore it will be very<br>
interesting to see the answers of ICANN legal to our questions re: our<br>
definition.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Niels<br>
<br>
On Fri, 2016-10-21 at 09:11 +0000, <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a> wrote:<br>
> thanks Niels and Sabine<br>
><br>
> a comment: this is of course the US perspective only - applicable laws from other jurisdictions with which ICANN has sufficient connection would also apply...<br>
><br>
> best<br>
><br>
> Jorge<br>
><br>
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet<br>
><br>
> > Am 21.10.2016 um 11:06 schrieb Niels ten Oever <<a href="mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net">lists@nielstenoever.net</a>>:<br>
> ><br>
> > Dear Paul,<br>
> ><br>
> > I think we can now answer some of your questions. Sidley already made a<br>
> > 'Response to Questions Regarding ICANN’s Human Rights Obligations' in<br>
> > July 2015, you can find it attached.<br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks a lot to Sabine Meyer for digging this up.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> ><br>
> > Niels<br>
> ><br>
> >> On 10/20/2016 11:53 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote:<br>
> >> Dear Paul,<br>
> >><br>
> >> I completely agree we should have a clear definition of applicable law,<br>
> >> which is what we are working on, and about which we also asked ICANN<br>
> >> legal a question in the call before last.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Where I am having a much harder time following you is when you ask:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Ask ICANN Legal what<br>
> >>> Human Rights laws already apply to the organization.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Human rights law only binds states, so I think we have the answer to<br>
> >> that. Of course states that sign on to different treaties should reflect<br>
> >> those commitments in their bodies of law, but there is no 1:1 relation<br>
> >> between specific laws and specific human rights, and making a genealogy<br>
> >> of that would seem almost impossible, or at least a Herculean task.<br>
> >> Especially since it is hard to estimate what laws, policies and<br>
> >> regulations all potentially could have an impact on rights such as<br>
> >> freedom of expression, freedom of association, etc. So I am having a<br>
> >> hard time making this link, but maybe I am missing something.<br>
> >><br>
> >> All the best,<br>
> >><br>
> >> Niels<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>> On 10/19/2016 08:13 PM, Paul McGrady wrote:<br>
> >>> Thanks Niels. By saying the group has reached some sort of consensus that<br>
> >>> certain Ruggie principals may apply, you are already including overviews of<br>
> >>> the various views of the members of the group. I, for one, still have no<br>
> >>> idea if any of the Ruggie principals would apply since I do not know whether<br>
> >>> or not they are already subsumed by or preempted by California State law. I<br>
> >>> hope your summary will be complete enough to include that at least one<br>
> >>> person in the group believes we out to start with what applicable law is<br>
> >>> already in place before we begin opining on whether or not third party<br>
> >>> sources should govern ICANN behavior, since the bylaw makes it clear that<br>
> >>> all of our work should end up with a product that is within applicable law.<br>
> >>> We simply have no hope at hitting the target if we insist on having blinders<br>
> >>> on. Not telling the Plenary CCWG that we have decided to put on blinders is<br>
> >>> an important thing for them to know so that they can either tell us to take<br>
> >>> off the blinders and look first at what human rights requirements already<br>
> >>> exist under applicable law or they can consent to us trying to put the<br>
> >>> puzzle together in the dark.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> As far as my suggestions for next steps, they remain the same as the first<br>
> >>> (among many) times I have brought up this subject. Ask ICANN Legal what<br>
> >>> Human Rights laws already apply to the organization. They have been<br>
> >>> operating in California for some time now and they already know the answer<br>
> >>> to this question.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Best,<br>
> >>> Paul<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Paul D. McGrady, Jr.<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>> From: Niels ten Oever [mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net">lists@nielstenoever.<wbr>net</a>]<br>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 11:24 AM<br>
> >>> To: Paul McGrady <<a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org">ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
> >>> Cc: <a href="mailto:thomas@rickert.net">thomas@rickert.net</a><br>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Ws2-hr] Report to CCWG<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Hi Paul,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I am a bit hesitant to add an overview of different views of members of the<br>
> >>> group, but I will try.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> In the meantime I would still be very interested to hear from you how you<br>
> >>> think we could approach this, with the limited resources of our group and in<br>
> >>> conjunction with the current understanding of applicable law we're working<br>
> >>> on.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Best,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Niels<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> On 10/19/2016 05:31 PM, Paul McGrady wrote:<br>
> >>>> Thanks Niels. I would like for your summary to include notice that I<br>
> >>>> have consistently called for us to evaluate what human rights<br>
> >>>> principles already apply to ICANN as a result of applicable California<br>
> >>>> law in order to get a baseline to begin a gap analysis, but that the<br>
> >>>> request has not been acted upon by the group. Thanks.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Best,<br>
> >>>> Paul<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Paul D. McGrady, Jr.<br>
> >>>> <a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>> From: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org">ws2-hr-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>] On<br>
> >>>> Behalf Of Niels ten Oever<br>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:24 AM<br>
> >>>> To: <a href="mailto:ws2-hr@icann.org">ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
> >>>> Subject: [Ws2-hr] Report to CCWG<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Dear all,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I hope this email finds you well. Coming Friday is the deadline for me<br>
> >>>> to report to the CCWG Plenary on the progress of our Subgroup. I<br>
> >>>> drafted the text underneath. Your input is more than welcome before<br>
> >>>> Friday, when I will submit it to the CCWG co-chairs.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> All your input is of course very much appreciated.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Best,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Niels<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> 1. Executive Summary<br>
> >>>> The CCWG WS2 Human Rights Subgroup has documented the historical<br>
> >>>> context of the discussions on ICANNs human rights bylaw, which<br>
> >>>> together with the CCWG report (especially Annex 6 and 12) form it's<br>
> >>>> scope of discussion, with a Framework of Interpretation of the Human<br>
> >>> Rights Bylaw as intended output.<br>
> >>>> The subgroup is currently preparing a Framework of Interpretation<br>
> >>>> which in due time will be presented to the CCWG plenary for discussion.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> 2. Description of the Issue<br>
> >>>> 2.1 Current State of Play<br>
> >>>> The CCWG WS2 Human Rights Subgroup started of with providing an<br>
> >>>> overview of the discussions and agreements as they were made during<br>
> >>>> CCWG Workstream 1 [0]. Subsequently the Subgroup has analyzed the UN<br>
> >>>> Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights (UNGPs), and their<br>
> >>>> relevance and applicability for ICANN. While there was consensus that<br>
> >>>> some principles were relevant for the development for a Framework of<br>
> >>>> Interpretation (such as 13a and 15a), it was also recognized that the<br>
> >>>> UNGPs have not been designed with an organization like ICANN in mind.<br>
> >>>> Therefore a drafting team is currently iteratively designing a draft<br>
> >>>> Framework of Interpretation which is being discussed in weekly calls.<br>
> >>>> It is expected, that at this rate, the subgroup will be able to achieve<br>
> >>> the set milestones.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> 2.2 Supplemental Report<br>
> >>>> See [0]<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> 3 Recommendation<br>
> >>>> 3.1 Requirements for Recommendation<br>
> >>>> We haven't reached consensus on a recommendation yet.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> 3.2 Rationale for Recommendation<br>
> >>>> We haven't reached consensus on a recommendation yet.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> [0]<br>
> >>>> <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_rNkjMVJPOmYwmdr5B1_" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_<wbr>rNkjMVJPOmYwmdr5B1_</a><br>
> >>>> M_aNMo<br>
> >>>> Zb4/edit?usp=sharing<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> --<br>
> >>>> Niels ten Oever<br>
> >>>> Head of Digital<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Article 19<br>
> >>>> <a href="http://www.article19.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.article19.org</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4<br>
> >>>> 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9<br>
> >>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
> >>>> Ws2-hr mailing list<br>
> >>>> <a href="mailto:Ws2-hr@icann.org">Ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
> >>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-hr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-hr</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> --<br>
> >>> Niels ten Oever<br>
> >>> Head of Digital<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Article 19<br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.article19.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.article19.org</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4<br>
> >>> 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Niels ten Oever<br>
> > Head of Digital<br>
> ><br>
> > Article 19<br>
> > <a href="http://www.article19.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.article19.org</a><br>
> ><br>
> > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4<br>
> > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9<br>
> > <Memo_ ICANN Human Rights Obligations.docx><br>
> > ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
> > Ws2-hr mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Ws2-hr@icann.org">Ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
> > <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-hr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-hr</a><br>
<br>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Ws2-hr mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ws2-hr@icann.org">Ws2-hr@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-hr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-hr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>